[split] Debating Lion IRC
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21-02-2013, 11:31 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 09:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where is the evidence for the persecution and torture of early Christians? There isn't any. It's a myth.

[Image: pliny-the-younger.jpg]
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22-02-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 11:31 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(21-02-2013 09:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where is the evidence for the persecution and torture of early Christians? There isn't any. It's a myth.

[Image: pliny-the-younger.jpg]


Context of Pliny's Letter

Pliny the Younger was governor of Bithynia-Pontus. As governor, Pliny held large influence over all of the residents of his province.[1] This demonstrated to be especially true in the legal treatment of Christians. The Roman legal construct of cognitio extra ordenum, afforded governors a large amount of discretion in deciding legal cases.[2] Because of this, individual governors treated Christians very differently depending on the public and social environment of his province.[2] For example, Tertullian wrote that no Christian blood was shed in Africa prior to 180.[2] On the other hand, many governors, such as Pliny, executed the Christians that were brought before their court. Thus, given the primary role and control practiced by Roman governors, it does not serve well to think of the persecution of Christians as a systematic empire-wide pogrom ordered by the emperor prior to Emperor Domitian.[2] As scholar Timothy Barnes summarizes, “Actual persecution…was local, sporadic, almost random”.[1]

Although execution of Christians was not unheard-of or new by the time Pliny took office, there lacked to be a specific definition of their crime. Tacitus, along with Pliny, detested Christians for their “abominations” (flagitia) and believed them to be “deserving of exemplary punishment”.[2] However, the question remained whether the cause for punishment was for simply being a Christian or for the crimes associated with being a Christian, such as flagitia (or arson in the case of Nero’s persecution).[2] Pliny, who frequently wrote to Emperor Trajan for advice, was searching for the answer to this question in his Letter of Emperor Trajan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Y...Christians

[emphasis added]


In conclusion...

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Still waiting on evidence for the resurrection Pussycat...

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24-02-2013, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2013 07:07 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(22-02-2013 12:08 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-02-2013 11:31 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  [Image: pliny-the-younger.jpg]


Context of Pliny's Letter

Pliny the Younger was governor of Bithynia-Pontus. As governor, Pliny held large influence over all of the residents of his province.[1] This demonstrated to be especially true in the legal treatment of Christians. The Roman legal construct of cognitio extra ordenum, afforded governors a large amount of discretion in deciding legal cases.[2] Because of this, individual governors treated Christians very differently depending on the public and social environment of his province.[2] For example, Tertullian wrote that no Christian blood was shed in Africa prior to 180.[2] On the other hand, many governors, such as Pliny, executed the Christians that were brought before their court. Thus, given the primary role and control practiced by Roman governors, it does not serve well to think of the persecution of Christians as a systematic empire-wide pogrom ordered by the emperor prior to Emperor Domitian.[2] As scholar Timothy Barnes summarizes, “Actual persecution…was local, sporadic, almost random”.[1]

Although execution of Christians was not unheard-of or new by the time Pliny took office, there lacked to be a specific definition of their crime. Tacitus, along with Pliny, detested Christians for their “abominations” (flagitia) and believed them to be “deserving of exemplary punishment”.[2] However, the question remained whether the cause for punishment was for simply being a Christian or for the crimes associated with being a Christian, such as flagitia (or arson in the case of Nero’s persecution).[2] Pliny, who frequently wrote to Emperor Trajan for advice, was searching for the answer to this question in his Letter of Emperor Trajan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Y...Christians

Yeah. LOL

You just cited a reference to early Christianity which verified that;

* there was ''actual persecution''

* there were Governors who ''executed the Christians that were brought before their court''

* Christian ''blood was shed in Africa''

* the ''execution of Christians was not unheard-of''

* Christians were detested for their “abominations”

I thought you said it was a myth.
Huh
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24-02-2013, 07:08 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 09:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where is the evidence for the persecution and torture of early Christians? There isn't any. It's a myth.
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24-02-2013, 07:11 PM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2013 07:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
The reason the persecutions began (with Nero) was that Christians were a convenient political scape-goat for use, as they were a small distrusted group, that were said to eat the flesh and blood of humans. It had nothing whatever to do with their beliefs. It was simply political expediency for Roman politicians to deflect anger from themselves. They were not tortured for their beliefs. They were used as convenient political pawns. The "martyr" thing is all BS.

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25-02-2013, 05:57 AM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
What EK and Bucky said.

Also...check out http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html , which is a one page translation of the correspondence.

Note...

1. We're talking circa 113 CE...so we're most definitely NOT talking about Jesus' original disciples...or their kids.

2. Bear in mind there is ALWAYS doubt about the authenticity of ANY .document from the 2nd century that mentions Christianity. I'm not sure whether you've ever read anything historical on this topic, but here http://www.harrington-sites.com/fa.htm is a free classic text on the topic.
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