[split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-11-2014, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2014 04:21 PM by Stevil.)
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-11-2014 03:23 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you are shooting deer, generally you get one shot. A bolt action, without a magazine would be sufficient.

Untrue. Why do you think that?
Deer are very sensitive, They run when they hear gunshot. I've never known them to hang around while you take 15 shots at them.

(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:Even shooting rabbits or possums, a pump action or something with an action that means you can't keep aim between shots would be fine.

No, it wouldn't. Why do you think that?
[/quote
I've done it. It is sufficient.

(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  [quote]
Shooting rabbits then a .22 would be fine. A magazine or ammunition reserve of 5 or 6 bullets should be plenty.

Why do you think that is sufficient?
I've done it, it is sufficient.


(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:With ducks, obviously a shotgun is most suitable. Perhaps double barreled so you could maintain aim and get two attempts.

By now, I realize you have little or no experience or knowledge of hunting.
I've been duck shooting, a double barreled shot gun is sufficient.

(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:AR-15 seems to me to be overkill, like trying to crack a walnut with a sledge hammer or using an off-road 4 wheel drive to pick the kids up from school.

Why do you think that? What is it that makes it overkill?
For all the reasons mentioned above.


(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:How does an AR-15 stack up with regards to accuracy against other .308s?

The AR-15 is chambered for 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Remington), not .308.

ARs are quite accurate. In CMP/NRA High Power competition, the AR-15 has become the dominant rifle used.
Give a 0.22 is sufficient for rabbit shooting and you need a shotgun for duck shooting, I am comparing the AR-15 to a .308 which seems to me to be suitable for deer shooting. If I am shooting deer, why would I choose an AR-15 over an accurate .308?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 04:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why not do like Switzerland? They have a 0.6 murder rate compared to our 4.7 murder rate and the 4th highest rate of gun ownership in the world.

The rate of gun ownership does not directly correlate with homicide rate.
Switzerland is often lauded as the poster child of anti gun control proponents in USA.

"Anti gun control proponents" is a mischaracterization. I know very few people who believe there should be no firearm regulation.

Quote:But one has to think, if both Switzerland and USA have high gun possession then why is there such a difference in murder rates and gun murders?

Precisely the point.

Quote:It seems that having high gun possession hasn't reduced the USA murder rates down to Switzerland levels.
- Are USA people more aggressive than Switzerland people?
- Is there more social unrest?
- Are there differences in gun laws and gun culture?

Almost certainly 'all of the above', in varying degree.

Quote:Taking a look at this last item
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politic...witzerland
Quote:The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations however it is not allowed to keep the ammunition.
Seems that the people are forced to possess a firearm whether they want to or not. Possession does not mean that they carry it, use it, or think about it.

And note, too, those really are assault rifles. It is only recently that the ammunition is not kept at home. The murder rate was still as low then as now.

Quote:
Quote:Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus). Up until October 2007, ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.
Their ammunition is actively monitored.

That ammunition is actively monitored.

Quote:
Quote:In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.
What percentage of USA people would return their ammo?

Fifty rounds of government-issued ammo? Probably most people.

Quote:
Quote:The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there.
Army issue assault rifles are for army purposes, not for personal use.

Seems perfectly reasonable. Your point?

Quote:Would be interesting to know the ownership rate of personal guns for personal use.

Shooting sports are quite popular in Switzerland.
From Wikipedia:
In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the US.

Quote:
Quote:To carry a loaded firearm in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragbewilligung (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.
What is the demographic of people carrying loaded weapons in USA? Are they carrying specifically for work purposes?

There are all kinds of people carrying handguns in the U.S. In some states, e.g. Vermont, there is a state constitutional right to bear arms and there is no permit required for Vermont residents. In other states, e.g. New York, there are severe restrictions on getting a permit to carry; one way to get one would be work-related.

Quote:
Quote:Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply:

The ammunition must be separated from the gun, no ammunition in a magazine.
The transport needs to be as direct as possible and needs a valid purpose
This must drastically reduce the amount of guns people are carrying around with them.

I'm sure it does. But did you know that many U.S. states have that same restriction on rifles and shotguns?

Quote:
Quote:Government statistics for the year 2010[19] records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.

The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70, which is one of the lowest in the world.[20] However, the annual rate of homicide by guns per 100,000 population was 0.52, which is higher than neighboring countries'
Would be interesting to see if the Switzerland homicide rate would reduce if there were less guns.

Since there is no demonstrable correlation between rates of gun ownership and murder rates, it's not even a very interesting question.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2014 04:53 PM by Chas.)
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 04:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why do you think that? What is it that makes it overkill?
For all the reasons mentioned above.

Many (most?) states have a magazine capacity limit for hunting which varies by type of game. Typically that limit is 3 - 5 cartridges. I have 5-shot magazines for my AR-15 and for my AR-10. Shotguns are typically limited to 3 rounds for waterfowl and other game bird (especially migratory bird) hunting. There are also federal regulations on this.

So, you haven't supported your claim that an AR is overkill.

Quote:
(16-11-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  The AR-15 is chambered for 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Remington), not .308.

ARs are quite accurate. In CMP/NRA High Power competition, the AR-15 has become the dominant rifle used.
Give a 0.22 is sufficient for rabbit shooting and you need a shotgun for duck shooting, I am comparing the AR-15 to a .308 which seems to me to be suitable for deer shooting. If I am shooting deer, why would I choose an AR-15 over an accurate .308?

The .223 cartridge is fine for deer hunting, and as noted above, the AR-15 is very accurate, beating out .308 and .30-06 rifles in competition. The AR and its ammunition is lighter than a rifle and ammo in .308, the recoil is more manageable allowing for faster follow-up shots when necessary. When a deer is fatally shot, it doesn't necessarily drop in its tracks; follow-up shots are sometimes necessary to prevent it running and to effect a quicker, more humane kill.

That said, I prefer a rifle in a larger caliber than .223 to increase the likelihood of a quick kill, but I wouldn't hesitate to use .223 if that's what I had.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:Would be interesting to know the ownership rate of personal guns for personal use.

Shooting sports are quite popular in Switzerland.
From Wikipedia:
In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the US.
The 29% contains the military issued guns. These are without ammo and are not used except on the target range.
I'd like to know how Swiss gun ownership compares to USA when we only account for the non military issued guns. This gives a reflection of the active gun usage/ownership. It give an indication of the active gun culture. I suspect it would be a lot lower than USA.

(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:What is the demographic of people carrying loaded weapons in USA? Are they carrying specifically for work purposes?

There are all kinds of people carrying handguns in the U.S. In some states, e.g. Vermont, there is a state constitutional right to bear arms and there is no permit required for Vermont residents. In other states, e.g. New York, there are severe restrictions on getting a permit to carry; one way to get one would be work-related.
So perhaps gun violence is more attributed to immediate gun possession rather than mere gun ownership. If you have a gun in your attic but no ammunition then it would be hard to (in a heated anger rage) use that gun to shoot your wife.

(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:This must drastically reduce the amount of guns people are carrying around with them.

I'm sure it does. But did you know that many U.S. states have that same restriction on rifles and shotguns?
What about handguns?
Does USA have more people per capita walking around with loaded guns than the Swiss?
Perhaps this is of significance as to why gun homicide is much lower in Switzerland than USA?

(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:Would be interesting to see if the Switzerland homicide rate would reduce if there were less guns.

Since there is no demonstrable correlation between rates of gun ownership and murder rates, it's not even a very interesting question.
I find it interesting to read that you have no interest as to whether less guns would reduce the homicide rate.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 05:40 PM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 05:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Shooting sports are quite popular in Switzerland.
From Wikipedia:
In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the US.
The 29% contains the military issued guns. These are without ammo and are not used except on the target range.
I'd like to know how Swiss gun ownership compares to USA when we only account for the non military issued guns. This gives a reflection of the active gun usage/ownership. It give an indication of the active gun culture. I suspect it would be a lot lower than USA.

No, that's the rate for civilian-owned guns.

Quote:
(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  There are all kinds of people carrying handguns in the U.S. In some states, e.g. Vermont, there is a state constitutional right to bear arms and there is no permit required for Vermont residents. In other states, e.g. New York, there are severe restrictions on getting a permit to carry; one way to get one would be work-related.
So perhaps gun violence is more attributed to immediate gun possession rather than mere gun ownership. If you have a gun in your attic but no ammunition then it would be hard to (in a heated anger rage) use that gun to shoot your wife.

Pure speculation. Look at the Swiss experience.

Quote:
(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm sure it does. But did you know that many U.S. states have that same restriction on rifles and shotguns?
What about handguns?
Does USA have more people per capita walking around with loaded guns than the Swiss?
Perhaps this is of significance as to why gun homicide is much lower in Switzerland than USA?

Yes, handguns, too. If I want to transport a firearm through a state where I don't have permission to carry, it has to be locked and separate from the ammunition.

Quote:
(16-11-2014 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Since there is no demonstrable correlation between rates of gun ownership and murder rates, it's not even a very interesting question.
I find it interesting to read that you have no interest as to whether less guns would reduce the homicide rate.

Until you demonstrate a correlation, it's not an interesting question any more than asking if astrological sign is correlated to murder rate.

If you find it an interesting question, go dig up the data; Google is your friend.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, that's the rate for civilian-owned guns.
Where does it say that?
Quote: In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind

(16-11-2014 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:So perhaps gun violence is more attributed to immediate gun possession rather than mere gun ownership. If you have a gun in your attic but no ammunition then it would be hard to (in a heated anger rage) use that gun to shoot your wife.

Pure speculation.
Sorry, but how do you shoot someone with a gun that you don't have ammo for?
There is an application of logic here not just pure speculation.


(16-11-2014 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:What about handguns?
Does USA have more people per capita walking around with loaded guns than the Swiss?
Perhaps this is of significance as to why gun homicide is much lower in Switzerland than USA?

Yes, handguns, too. If I want to transport a firearm through a state where I don't have permission to carry, it has to be locked and separate from the ammunition.
This doesn't address the question though, of whether USA has more people per capita walking around with loaded guns than the Swiss?

If this gun carrying per capita per state was known then it would be interesting to see if there is any correlation with regards to gun homicide rates.

(16-11-2014 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:I find it interesting to read that you have no interest as to whether less guns would reduce the homicide rate.

Until you demonstrate a correlation, it's not an interesting question any more than asking if astrological sign is correlated to murder rate.
But people get murder by use of guns. People don't get murdered by use of astrological signs.
Because people get murdered by guns then this means that there is some relevancy. There is no relevancy for astrological signs.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-11-2014, 06:54 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2014 06:59 PM by TheBear.)
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(10-11-2014 02:20 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Here is a firearm fact, guns do nothing but cause unnecessary death and suffering and should only exist in video games. Drinking Beverage

2007 estimate: 875 million guns worldwide.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-11-2014, 01:49 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(16-11-2014 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  When a deer is fatally shot, it doesn't necessarily drop in its tracks; follow-up shots are sometimes necessary to prevent it running and to effect a quicker, more humane kill.
Sure, I'd think a bolt action would be sufficient in most cases. 1 second to chamber a fresh round isn't that much of a hunting issue.

In a war that 1 second is a big issue because it allows your opponent to take aim on you. But hunting an unarmed deer, it's not a problem.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-11-2014, 07:25 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
It isn't so much the time between shots that is the problem, it's the additional movement while trying to keep your target lined up. If you're hunting and trying to take a shot at something 300 to 500 yards away, having semi, not to mention the lower caliber, less powerful rounds typically used in assault rifles, makes it easier to stay steady.

For larger game, like moose or something, I'd probably opt for a more powerful bolt action. For smaller, faster, more cautious game like deer, something of the notorious AR15 variety would be ideal. For protecting livestock from coyotes and shit like that, it would be absolutely marvelous.

It's also much more convenient. The AR15 platform is like the iPod of guns. Love it or hate it, all the attachments are made for it and spare parts are easy to come across.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-11-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
Double barrels suck for duck hunting. While adequate, not as useful as a pump or semi-auto. In the US shotguns for migratory water foul must have a limited capacity of 3 shells. 1 chambered and 2 in the magazine.

One reason to use a semi-auto for hunting is to help manage the recoil. The AR-15 platform in no more powerful that other rifles in the same caliber. A person could do as much damage with a semi-auto hunting rifle as an AR-15. My boss uses an AR-15 chambered in .308 as his hunting rifle.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: