[split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
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12-11-2014, 09:49 PM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
I'm gonna have trouble keeping up with this conversation. I made a showing on my spur of the moment two days off (an extremely rare occurrence, even during holidays), but I can't keep up with an hour in the evening after work. Sorry for any typos or irrational statements I might make, I'm having trouble staying awake and am going the hell to sleep after this Tongue I know, first world problems...

Anyways...
(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That Caracas has a sky-high homicide rate doesn't mean that the border is guarded due to the threat posed by roving gangs of Venezuelan rape-murderers. The situation is a little more complicated than "it's bad down there".
No doubt it's complicated. I could even start going into the involvement of Chinese special operations in Venezuela and other parts of South America in the wake of our own falling out or how the potential threat to our national security posed by the upcoming construction of the Nicaragua Canal further complicates the issue, but in the end the point is still the same. There are a variety of threats that could come from south of the border, especially in the event that our already stretched resources to deal with such a situation are further taxed by local issues ranging from civil unrest to natural disaster.

(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Guerillas need safepoints and supply lines, too, for that matter.
Definitely, though they can be much more flexible with the nature of those safe points and supply lines.

(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  See ISIS, indeed. Against forces with no morale or cohesion, they've seen a great deal of success. But there's a reason the SAA still hold the western half of their country.

Now imagine how differently those attacks could have gone if the citizens those cowardly excuses for soldiers abandoned were armed and dangerous instead of begging in vain for their lives.

(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The more advanced an infrastructure the more weak points it has. I'm aware of that.

These things neither happen overnight nor exist in vacuums, is more my point.

They may spend years or even centuries building up, but they can indeed come to fruition overnight.

(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  If they can't even secure the perimeter I think that's the last of their concerns...

I'm in full agreement, and I'm sure their perimeter would not be undefended. But it would be defended by soldiers, and the ability to put into position said marksmen is something that could be fought for via small arms based combat. Or they could ambush the supply lines. Or they could commandeer a TOW and use it to blow up parked airplanes from several miles away. All of these things and the many other possible tactics are certainly without risk. War is war.

(12-11-2014 09:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  What do you suppose the likelihood of internal conflict is, in your end of the world? There's a hell of a spectrum between "opportunistic looting" and "mere anarchy loosed upon the world".
(although now I'm struggling to find examples of complete societal breakdown absent significant outside armed conflict - small-scale resource exhaustion, is all I can think of)
The building blocks for countless possible scenarios are always there, and the spark that sets them tumbling, though rare, is a real possibility. Prior to World War I, economists theorized that, despite the problems that we now look at through hindsight bias as having made WWI inevitable were, at the time, ignored because the rational conclusion was that nobody had enough to gain for conflict to be worthwhile. The erroneous assumption was that people are, for the most part, rational. They're not.

If I had to theorize, I'd say that a much more realistic possibility than full blown anarchy across the U.S. (or any other large, highly populated country) is a fracturing, followed by conflict within certain vulnerable elements within that fracturing.

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13-11-2014, 03:10 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2014 03:24 AM by Stevil.)
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(12-11-2014 08:18 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...e-Violence

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs...online.pdf

"More gun control leads to higher murder rates."
That Harvard study is worthless. It points to different countries and tries to correlate gun ownership to crime rates. But obviously with trying to compare countries there are too many variables to conclude any correlation to one thing (i.e. guns)
A proper study would try to isolate one change. Same society, same culture, same people but a change in gun control laws or a change in gun ownership and see the effect of that one change.



And here are a couple of well researched, well reasoned articles that support the case that guns increase murder rates and violence
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09...ns-murder/
Quote:The largest study of gun violence in the United States, released Thursday afternoon, confirms a point that should be obvious: widespread American gun ownership is fueling America’s gun violence epidemic.


This one in particular is a fantastic article.
http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-guns...ense-myth/
Quote:Justifiable homicides vs criminal homicides - (deaths vs. deaths) the reason this is more accurate is that both result in a guaranteed death, and justifiable homicides function as a serviceable substitute for situations in which the death of the victim is more likely in the absence of a gun. In this case we have 230 justifiable homicides in 2010 vs 8,275 criminal homicides in 2010, which clearly weighs in favor of gun control advocates.
Quote:Defensive gun use vs crimes committed with a firearm - (uses vs uses). Again, guns were used in self-defense 338,700 times between 2007-2011. In that same five year period, there were 2,277,000 crimes committed with a firearm. Let’s be clear about this: every time a gun was used in self-defense, a criminal committed fatal or non-fatal firearm violence ~7 times.Either way you look at it, offensive gun use far outweighs defensive gun uses, and there is very little evidence validate the claim that guns reliably de-escalate a criminal encounter once it happens.
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13-11-2014, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2014 05:10 AM by Metazoa Zeke.)
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(12-11-2014 08:18 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...e-Violence

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs...online.pdf

"More gun control leads to higher murder rates."

So if they had guns they would murder less?

and another thing I can see that america has a murder rate of 4.7(which is bad) and russians can own guns for hunting reasons don't you know, so a russian can get a gun ans start killing people as well.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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13-11-2014, 06:04 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(13-11-2014 03:10 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 08:18 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...e-Violence

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs...online.pdf

"More gun control leads to higher murder rates."
That Harvard study is worthless. It points to different countries and tries to correlate gun ownership to crime rates. But obviously with trying to compare countries there are too many variables to conclude any correlation to one thing (i.e. guns)
A proper study would try to isolate one change. Same society, same culture, same people but a change in gun control laws or a change in gun ownership and see the effect of that one change.



And here are a couple of well researched, well reasoned articles that support the case that guns increase murder rates and violence
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09...ns-murder/
Quote:The largest study of gun violence in the United States, released Thursday afternoon, confirms a point that should be obvious: widespread American gun ownership is fueling America’s gun violence epidemic.


This one in particular is a fantastic article.
http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-guns...ense-myth/
Quote:Justifiable homicides vs criminal homicides - (deaths vs. deaths) the reason this is more accurate is that both result in a guaranteed death, and justifiable homicides function as a serviceable substitute for situations in which the death of the victim is more likely in the absence of a gun. In this case we have 230 justifiable homicides in 2010 vs 8,275 criminal homicides in 2010, which clearly weighs in favor of gun control advocates.
Quote:Defensive gun use vs crimes committed with a firearm - (uses vs uses). Again, guns were used in self-defense 338,700 times between 2007-2011. In that same five year period, there were 2,277,000 crimes committed with a firearm. Let’s be clear about this: every time a gun was used in self-defense, a criminal committed fatal or non-fatal firearm violence ~7 times.Either way you look at it, offensive gun use far outweighs defensive gun uses, and there is very little evidence validate the claim that guns reliably de-escalate a criminal encounter once it happens.

How many times do I have to go over this? A criminal will always have access to weapons. Further, a criminal is not a lawful gun owner. If you have been convicted of a felony, you cannot legally own or obtain a gun.

I don't understand your irrational fear of guns. a person who intends to commit a crime will commit one with or without a gun. See my previous example of a group of men killing 3,000 people with nothing more than some box cutters.

People are dangerous. With or without guns.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-11-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(13-11-2014 04:53 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 08:18 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...e-Violence

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs...online.pdf

"More gun control leads to higher murder rates."

So if they had guns they would murder less?

and another thing I can see that america has a murder rate of 4.7(which is bad) and russians can own guns for hunting reasons don't you know, so a russian can get a gun ans start killing people as well.

It sounds counterintutive. Kinda like sex education. The more sex education, and encouragement of healthy sex, the less teen pregnancy rates and lower abortion rates.

The more people that own guns, the more pause that gives a criminal from committing a crime. Why? Because jail time is not a deterrent....death is.

We are seeing this all over the country. In Chicago, they just legalized concealed carry. Crime rate dropped almost immediately.
Why? Because I'm not going to try to rob or rape you if I suspect that you'll shoot me.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-11-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
Here is what I don't understand: the irrational reaction to gun violence as though it's infinitely more tragic than any other kind of violence.

The number of innocent people killed from drunk drivers greatly exceeds the number of deaths through guns. Yet no one is attempting a ban alcohol.

Do you know how many people have guns in the US? More than 75 million people. And that's just registered guns. The majority of these people own, carry and use these guns without incident. But you don't hear about it because there is nothing to report.

I fire more than 300 rounds out of my guns every month. I've done this for the last 3 years. How many people have died or been injured as a result of my use? None.
There is no way to record that statistic though.

Gun ownership does not mean that I have an increased likelihood of killing someone. No more does having a fire extinguisher in my home lead to the increased likelihood of a fire.
It's false logic. A gun was used in the commission of a crime. Therefore eliminating guns will eliminate the crime.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-11-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(12-11-2014 07:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 07:45 PM)wazzel Wrote:  For those guy opponents do not use the mistaken logic that all gun crimes and deaths will completely go away in the absence of guns. Those crimes and deaths contributed to guns will move to other weapons. Well maybe not all of them. Who know for sure, but I suspect a large percent will just be carried out by other means.
That's a massive assumption.
We send armies into war with guns because they are much more efficient at stopping the enemy than knives.

If you disagree then surely all you need for protection is a knife, why do you argue for the right to protect yourself with a gun?
It is an assumption, but far more realistic than the assumption that all crime and deaths associated with guns will totally go away in the absence of guns.

Before we sent armies out with guns, we sent them out with swords, before that with spears, before that with clubs. Guns, although more efficient, are not required for war, crime and death. In the absence of firearms people will use other weapons.

I do not disagree that guns are more effective than a knife or bat or other melee weapon. People should be allowed to arm themselves, with in reason, to the level of potential threat. Don't get silly in your response. We all know that tanks etc are not reasonable.
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13-11-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(13-11-2014 06:11 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 04:53 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  So if they had guns they would murder less?

and another thing I can see that america has a murder rate of 4.7(which is bad) and russians can own guns for hunting reasons don't you know, so a russian can get a gun ans start killing people as well.

It sounds counterintutive. Kinda like sex education. The more sex education, and encouragement of healthy sex, the less teen pregnancy rates and lower abortion rates.

The more people that own guns, the more pause that gives a criminal from committing a crime. Why? Because jail time is not a deterrent....death is.

We are seeing this all over the country. In Chicago, they just legalized concealed carry. Crime rate dropped almost immediately.
Why? Because I'm not going to try to rob or rape you if I suspect that you'll shoot me.

A bit of cold war arms race reasoning. We built up our nukes, other weapons and military to keep the Russians from using theirs and they did the same. Not the best way to stop a war, but it mostly worked.
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13-11-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
No matter what statistic you pull out, no matter what fear you have of a particular weapon, it still does not negate this one simple truth:

The only thing that can stop deadly force, is to meet it with deadly force.

And please stop blaming the tool for its misuse. A gun's purpose is to fire a projectile. Thats it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-11-2014, 08:59 AM
RE: [split] Firearm Education Thread (lots of pics)
(13-11-2014 08:50 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  No matter what statistic you pull out, no matter what fear you have of a particular weapon, it still does not negate this one simple truth:

The only thing that can stop deadly force, is to meet it with deadly force.

And please stop blaming the tool for its misuse. A gun's purpose is to fire a projectile. Thats it.
Looking at the weapon and focusing on it also detract from the underlying causes of crime. Look at the stats, most crimes are committed by poor and/or uneducated people. Desperate people do desperate things. Taking away a weapon choice is not going to change that. Improve education and opportunity and crime will go down. When people have more to loose they are less likely to take the risk. Places with higher education rates and higher national income have lower crime. Think Norway and Japan.
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