[split] First time drug experience
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26-02-2014, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2014 07:36 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(25-02-2014 11:38 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 09:29 PM)Chippy Wrote:  It is in their contract because you put it there, its presence isn't an argument for its merit.

The contractual conditions you are imposing on your employees are unfair and not based in evidence, they are based on your ignorance of pharmacology.

I agree completely. But again I would stress that it's not THEIR contract, but YOUR contract that they were FORCED to sign in order to gain employment and be able to make a living for themselves.

I find your claim that it's "THEIR" contract to be un-FUCKING-believably arrogant. They wouldn't sign it if they didn't HAVE to, to make a living. You are a piece of fucking work.

Are they FORCED to work for me too? You hysterical drama queen!

That's the beauty of a free employment market. I am a small business. There are about 100 other employers they can go work for. This will probably piss you off, but I have also a policy of "smoke-free campus" if you wanna smoke a cigarette, you have to leave the property.

I have lots of policies that you might not agree with. There is a no fraternizing policy. Ie, no dating your colleagues. Why? Because by eliminating that, I don't have to worry about the breakup, high drama, and sexual harassment (to a lesser extent). Am I selfish for this too? Or is the employee selfish for putting my business at an unnecessary risk for lawsuits. Or selfish that I now would have to shift employees to a different department (no easy feat in a small business), interrupting productivity, reducing the ultimate effect to te rest of the employees because those 2 employees couldn't keep it in their pants?
I run a business - not a dating pool.

Don't like it? I'm not the only employer in town...

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 06:53 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2014 07:35 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 12:06 AM)Lightvader Wrote:  You posted this one
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp...p_id=22577

wich doesnt show that
and in my quick search earlier,i found this
http://www.oshax.org/info/articles/drug-testing
i prolly didnt see it because i was working,but a really nice person poined out to me that the OSHA strongly supports drug testing ,but does not actually require it.

As a matter of policy, since you don't know a lot about regulators, recommendations are basically requirements.

While they can't legally fine me for it, OSHA looks for a " culture of compliance" they call it. If I don't have a good culture, ie, going above and beyond, then they can choose not to issue me a verbal warning for not having "do not eat" signs printed on signs around a stack of bricks. Or they can fine me instead for having a corner of the OSHA reg signs covered by another sheet of paper/sign.

OSHA requirements are absolutely overwhelming.

However, this is a separate issue:

I'll say it again. I don't think habitual drug use is a good thing. I think it's incredibly stupid to "try" heroin, crack, meth or any other highly addictive illegal substances.

Every person I've ever met that did drugs on a regular basis turned into a gigantic loser. Arrest records are not sexy.

There really isn't an argument that excessive use of drugs is good for you or provides benefits. In fact, there seems only to be negative effects to that individual and those around them. The amount of bodies I recover from overdoses is evidence enough for ME

Why is my personal opinion regarding drug use and the people I surround myself with such a problem for you? I don't hang out with people who habitually use drugs (that were not prescribed by a doctor).

The key word is also habitual. I don't hang out with people who drink too much either because I don't drink all the time myself. If all we ever do when we spend time together is drink, I grow tired of that very quickly. So I have friends that go skiing, and do the things I like to do. By default, I don't have any friends who are cigarette smokers, because my friends are physically very active. None of my running, hiking, skiing, or golf friends smoke. Further, I don't like the smell, it gives me a headache. Everything a heavy smoker touches reeks of smoke after they leave. I don't let anyone smoke in my house - they must go outside. Is that fair because I'm forcing my guest outside? Nope. But it's my house - I don't care. I also think smoking cigs is very stupid, too. Waste of money, time and health. Why should anyone get insulted over this?

Common interests breed friendships. Why is this a problem for anyone?!?!

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 12:37 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 08:57 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  My employees are free to resign if they don't like my policies

Yes, they are "free" to get into the unemployment lines in the middle of this Great Depression that the Republican Rape of America has left us with, to lose their houses and their belongings and their families, and to live in cardboard boxes. Let them eat fucking cake, say you.

Your arrogance is fucking disgusting.

I'm sorry - whose hysterical? We are in the middle of a "Great Depression"? Exaggerate much?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 07:28 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 01:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 12:37 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Yes, they are "free" to get into the unemployment lines in the middle of this Great Depression that the Republican Rape of America has left us with, to lose their houses and their belongings and their families, and to live in cardboard boxes. Let them eat fucking cake, say you.

Your arrogance is fucking disgusting.

Taq. Picture owning your own business. Picture slaving away at it for years, getting those first big contracts, growing it slowly, slowly adding more employees. That's hard work. There are lean months. Times when you don't know if you'll manage to pay everyone at the end of the month. As the boss, the buck stops with you. Anything that goes wrong with whatever work your company is involved with, *you* are ultimately the one responsible.

Now the scenario presented is one in which
a. an employee fails a drug test
b. the employee is allowed to continue working their heavy machinery with the boss's full knowledge
c. a serious accident happens

It doesn't matter that the employee would have been in full possession of their cognitive faculties or whatever else, the employee failed the test. Any court would convict Cathy of negligence. If this strikes you as unfair, the place to challenge it would be to challenge the law, not the business owner who strives to be in compliance with the law.

Cathy has explained that she is legally required to do drug testing. If an employee is taking drugs for some reason, if I was boss, I would expect them to disclose that reason to me, not to wait until they failed a drug test, and then hopefully we can make a plan for what to do together. If the employee failed to disclose, then even if the (s)he had a legitimate reason for taking the drugs, I would consider firing them. Sounds harsh, but they just risked my entire business without even having the courtesy to tell me. Fuck them.

It's not just if an accident happens that you're risking a lawsuit. If someone found out that you'd failed a drug test and were still allowed to operate the machinery, the company would still take a massive hit. And worse, the company would then have a reputation within the industry. People remember these things. If it came down to a choice between contracting Cathy's company and a different one, they'll take the one with the squeaky clean safety record.

Yup. Thank you for understanding. I have to protect all employees.

As I said before, if an employee has a legit reason for failing a drug test, they are reassigned or given PAID leave.

As I said, a female employee was diagnosed with cancer. She was smoking pot for the chemo. I gave her six months paid leave. I didn't have to do that.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 01:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 01:28 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  MD. I am well aware of the issues that employers currently face wrt drug testing, especially wrt cannabis. That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the shit she spouted to get herself into this position. You wanna chase after her red herring, have at it. But don't go preaching at me over it, that irrelevant bullshit isn't at all what this is about. I don't give a fuck about her company bullshit. And the bullshit she is spouting has nothing to do with her company bullshit. That's just her trying to make excuses for her personal prejudices. Don't be fooled.

You spent a lot of time saying stuff like "Your lawyers are telling you what you want to hear" and "It's unfair to force an employee to sign a contract agreeing to drug testing" etc. This is what I take issue with... I guess to a certain extent I have my own bias 'cos I work for a small business and yeah... you really start to appreciate how tough things are for the boss-man and how scary it is to think of having some bunch of lawyers after you.

I get that Cathy is coming from a position where she's got a horror of drugs... You can call it prejudice, I guess it is, because as you've pointed out, probably most people who take drugs are perfectly fine functioning members of society and certainly not losers. But yeah, law matters are a different story.

I think that's where we're talking past each other, is that you're annoyed by the... "all druggies are losers" stuff and I see your comments about the business stuff and kinda lose the plot a bit myself Tongue

The convo about my business started when I said I don't surround myself with drug addicts and I don't hire them either. If they do drugs, (pot is still illegal in NY) they get fired.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 07:43 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 01:28 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  MD. I am well aware of the issues that employers currently face wrt drug testing, especially wrt cannabis. That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the shit she spouted to get herself into this position. You wanna chase after her red herring, have at it. But don't go preaching at me over it, that irrelevant bullshit isn't at all what this is about. I don't give a fuck about her company bullshit. And the bullshit she is spouting has nothing to do with her company bullshit. That's just her trying to make excuses for her personal prejudices. Don't be fooled.

Don't be fooled, MD. Taq only supports pot use because he smokes it. If he smoked meth, he would support a person's right to smoke it too.
I don't hear him saying crack, heroin or bath salts are a person's personal right...

Pot? Meet kettle. (Pun intended)

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 07:31 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  The convo about my business started when I said I don't surround myself with drug addicts and I don't hire them either. If they do drugs, (pot is still illegal in NY) they get fired.

I think where people were taking offense was over your perceived hardline attitude that *anyone* who even smokes a J once in a while is an addicted loser, not over your company policies. The company stuff got mixed in with the other stuff and confusion resulted...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-02-2014, 07:59 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 07:43 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  If he smoked meth, he would support a person's right to smoke it too.


I neither support not disagree with Either of you in this debate. I have no dog in this fight........but.....the above statement I do not believe is true. I like you Cath and you know that but Meth? Common.

jesus you guys
this is just out of hand when meth is used in statement like it's standard life, etc

Weeping

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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26-02-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 07:59 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 07:43 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  If he smoked meth, he would support a person's right to smoke it too.


I neither support not disagree with Either of you in this debate. I have no dog in this fight........but.....the above statement I do not believe is true. I like you Cath and you know that but Meth? Common.

jesus you guys
this is just out of hand when meth is used in statement like it's standard life, etc

Weeping

Witchy,

It's rhetorical since he is prone to dramatics and accusing me of hysteria while simultaneously exaggerating my disapproval of habitual drug use as a "reefer crusade."

I was pointing out the ridiculous of his claim that I am "prejudice" because I don't hang with chronic drug users.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: [split] First time drug experience
(26-02-2014 07:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 07:31 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  The convo about my business started when I said I don't surround myself with drug addicts and I don't hire them either. If they do drugs, (pot is still illegal in NY) they get fired.

I think where people were taking offense was over your perceived hardline attitude that *anyone* who even smokes a J once in a while is an addicted loser, not over your company policies. The company stuff got mixed in with the other stuff and confusion resulted...

I never said that. Not once. I repeatedly stated habitual use. Every day. Stoned all the time.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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