[split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
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22-08-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 07:50 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 06:06 PM)JimFit Wrote:  If God doesn't exist then the Universe was popped out of Nothingness
That's a poor start. The universe exists. It may have been created by something else (whether or not that be a god) or it may have always existed, perhaps in a different form than it does today. It may also not be a well-formed question to ask what caused the universe to exist and in fact the correct way to think about the start of time in the universe is not as a beginning, but as an "edge" of the universe.

The question of the universe's origin is unanswered, and what we know so far does not give substantial support to the idea of a creator god who itself must have been created, always existed in some form, or has some temporal edge. Adding a creator simply adds an unjustified layer of complexity to our reasoning.

I think Carl Sagan says it well:




(21-08-2014 06:06 PM)JimFit Wrote:  ...assembled itself through Randomness and we are here by pure Luck. The last time i checked my science books Randomness Nothingness and Luck didn't exist as scientific explanations because the Universe is Deterministic Homogeneous and Finite. Physical infinite causes also are out of the table, BVG Theorem actually proved that the Physical Universe had a beginning even if it were quantum fluctuations therefor the cause of the Universe was transcendental. The Fine Tuning of the Universe complements the argument if the transcendental cause was mindless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDMpWcf4ee0
Now you are into the realm of questions science can answer. The problem here is not atheism but your incredulity of hundreds of years of careful scientific advancement in our knowledge of cosmology.

(21-08-2014 06:06 PM)JimFit Wrote:  If God doesn't exist objective morals doesn't exist. You will hear atheists say the opposite that morals can exist without God and even without Christ we could reach the same morals. That's wrong and we have an alive paradigm (except USSR). The Atheists Epicurean Philosophers the first atheists (the people that are responsible for modern atheism) one day looked at the sky and said "There are no Gods, lets make our morals based on Nature" AND THEY DID IT! Do you want to know how this ended up? Did they reached the divine word of the Lord Jesus Christ? NOT AT ALL! The Atheists Epicurean Philosophers openly supported slavery, woman abuse, woman inequality, murder, incest, rape, worship of the God Cesar AND EVEN IN THE TIME OF CHRISTIANITY THEY MOCKED THE CHRISTIANS FOR SHOWING MERCY TO THE WEAK BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT MERCY AS A WEAKNESS!!!! They also thought that the Universe is Eternal and said that there is no reason to understand the Universe because it is Eternal and we are mortals!
The most peaceful and tolerant societies today are also the most atheistic. Your facts are incorrect.

The Physical Universe is finite, Carl Sagan is dead and his philosophical nonsenses are dead also, we are not in the 70s anymore wake up. Big Bang theory has been proven,

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/scient...onal-waves

BVG Theorem states that every Universe that expands it can't be past eternal even if it were in another state of existence, even if it was quantum fluctuations therefor Atheism has no excuse anymore

http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2012/...beginning/

Prove me the opposide that the Universe is Eternal Past, deny Science in the name of Atheism if you dare!

Scandinavian Countries are not Atheist as you may think, their Leaders are hardcore Christian Lutherans from the Prime minister to the President.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=religion+in+scandinavian+countries

You must also know that Scandinavia Countries own to Christianity their civilization who came together with Christianity. Before the Scandinavian Countries became Christian Countries they were sepperate uneducated paganist tribes that fought each other. Together with every Church it was built around the Church there was also a Teacher a Doctor and a library.

If you want to look at trully Atheistic Countries look at China, South Korea, Czech Republic!

South Korea before it becames an Atheistic State and after, can you see peace, freedom, tolerance? They even returned to the God Cesar as the Epicureans were succesfully prophecied! Epicureans knew that if a State becames Atheistic the place of God will be taken by the Head of the State!

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22-08-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Works Cited:

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.


NOTE* notice how all the references are christian theology books and not atheist? Yup, I know your faith inside and out, and you thought you were going to waltz into here and teach us heathens a thing or two about christ Big Grin

Can I just say that I love you include citations from sources to back up your assertions. People come here and mindlessly talk about what amounts to their own feelings...

Feelings aren't credible.

It's the equvilant of saying, because I said so.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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22-08-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:03 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 11:54 AM)JimFit Wrote:  No he doesn't, Jesus was clear whoever tried to justified evil actions to God he is not following God but his Ego. Jesus came to restore our relationship with God because the people in the Old Testament lost their way to salvation.

and you know this how? This is why the whole hearsay debacle puts all of those warm and fuzzy statements into the fairy tale category.

Because I am a Christian and i read the Gospels? Jesus Christ had to come for a reason, He didn't came only to fulfil the prophecies but to bring the Truth of Man down to us. The Ten commanders forbit murder therefor God didn't change His mind about murders.
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22-08-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:45 PM)JimFit Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 12:03 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  and you know this how? This is why the whole hearsay debacle puts all of those warm and fuzzy statements into the fairy tale category.

Because I am a Christian and i read the Gospels? Jesus Christ had to come for a reason, He didn't came only to fulfil the prophecies but to bring the Truth of Man down to us. The Ten commanders forbit murder therefor God didn't change His mind about murders.

ugh i checked the computer one more time on my way out the door.

okay, you read the gospels....who ...wrote...them? Were...they...witnesses of these alleged events? Shake your head no, and refer back to my post earlier. So how do you know about christ? What is the true basis of your faith? You seem like an educated, intelligent adult, so you must have applied some thought to this.....you can't use blind faith to accept ridiculous stories about magical genies, zombie invasions and men walking on water....so....what is the basis of your faith?


Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE. Faith is an epistemology. It's a method and process people use to understand reality. Faith-based claims are knowledge claims. For example, "I have faith that jesus christ will heal my sickness because it says so in Luke" is a knowledge claim. The utterer of this statement is asserting jesus will heal her. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. For example, when someone says "jesus walked on water" (matthew 14:22-33), that person is claiming TO KNOW there was an historical figure names jesus and that he, unaided by technology, literally walked across the surface of the water. This is a knowledge claim...an objective statement of fact.

Your religious beliefs typically depend on the community in which you were raised or lived. The spiritual experiences of people in ancient greece, medieval japan or 21st century saudia arabia do not lead to belief in christianity. It seems, therefore, that religious belief very likely tracks not truth but social conditioning.

Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010, 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick & Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997, 2011, Smith 1979, STenger & Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc)

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth. Here are five points believers/non believers should be able to agree upon.

1) There are different faith traditions.
2) Different faith traditions make different truth claims.
3) The truth claims of some faith traditions contradict the truth claims of other faith traditions. For example, Muslims believe muhammad (570-632) was the last prophet (Sura 33:40). Mormons believe Joseph Smith (1805-1844), who lived after muhammad was a prophet.
4) It cannot both be the case that muhammad was the last prophet, and someone who lived after him was also a prophet.
5) Therefore: At LEAST one of these claims must be false....perhaps both....

it is impossible to figure out which of these claims is incorrect if the tool one uses is faith. As a tool, as an epistemology, as a method of reasoning, as a process for knowing the world, faith cannot adjudicate between competing claims. The ONLY way to figure out which claims about the world are likely true, and which are likely false, is through reason and evidence. There is no other way.


Okay, I will check back to see how you are evolving later, off to the gym.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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22-08-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:09 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 11:59 AM)JimFit Wrote:  Please find me a scholar that denies Jesus Historicy..just one.

Richard Carrier

http://www.richardcarrier.info/

That was easy. I'm sure there are others, but Carrier came immediately to mind.

You know that Richard Carrier is a mythicist right?

Here is the debunk by the Atheist scholar Bart Ehrman

http://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/

if you don't like to read here is the video ( i previously upload it but you obviously didn't watch it)



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22-08-2014, 12:54 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:44 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 12:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Works Cited:

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.


NOTE* notice how all the references are christian theology books and not atheist? Yup, I know your faith inside and out, and you thought you were going to waltz into here and teach us heathens a thing or two about christ Big Grin

Can I just say that I love you include citations from sources to back up your assertions. People come here and mindlessly talk about what amounts to their own feelings...

Feelings aren't credible.

It's the equvilant of saying, because I said so.

exactly, and I choose 99% of the time to use theology books, books written by biblical and religious scholars, and it makes it sting that much more when I use their own faith against them. Anyone can bloviate about what they think, but to substantiate and validate it is another matter, something I strive to do...usually Blush

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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22-08-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
Hmm Sock check. This guy reminds me way too much of hbl.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-08-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 11:54 AM)JimFit Wrote:  
Quote:OK, how about God and all his murderous stuff in the old testament - he explictly commands people to kill. Doesn't seem very loving? Consider
No he doesn't, Jesus was clear whoever tried to justified evil actions to God he is not following God but his Ego. Jesus came to restore our relationship with God because the people in the Old Testament lost their way to salvation.

Here you go: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

A list of explicit verses (only a google search away) where God commands, condones and carries out murder.

Some choice samples:
Quote:Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
No dick in wrong hole.

Quote:Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Burned to death? Sounds like commanding murder to me. And for something entirely not fucking wrong.

Quote:More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

So now, my dear chap, you have been proven wrong. You may look these verses up in your bible - there is nothing made up there. I look forward to your drivel-ridden, contorted and illogical explanation for why your God, the one you worship, the "God of Love", is such a massive asshole.

Have a nice day Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-08-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 01:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hmm Sock check. This guy reminds me way too much of hbl.

Sorry he's not.

And you know we check everyone. But if he is not who he claims to be, eventually he'll screw up and reveal that. They always do.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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22-08-2014, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2014 01:26 PM by JimFit.)
RE: [split] From Fundamental Evangelicalism to Orthodox Christianity to Atheism
(22-08-2014 12:50 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 12:45 PM)JimFit Wrote:  Because I am a Christian and i read the Gospels? Jesus Christ had to come for a reason, He didn't came only to fulfil the prophecies but to bring the Truth of Man down to us. The Ten commanders forbit murder therefor God didn't change His mind about murders.

ugh i checked the computer one more time on my way out the door.

okay, you read the gospels....who ...wrote...them? Were...they...witnesses of these alleged events? Shake your head no, and refer back to my post earlier. So how do you know about christ? What is the true basis of your faith? You seem like an educated, intelligent adult, so you must have applied some thought to this.....you can't use blind faith to accept ridiculous stories about magical genies, zombie invasions and men walking on water....so....what is the basis of your faith?


Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE. Faith is an epistemology. It's a method and process people use to understand reality. Faith-based claims are knowledge claims. For example, "I have faith that jesus christ will heal my sickness because it says so in Luke" is a knowledge claim. The utterer of this statement is asserting jesus will heal her. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. For example, when someone says "jesus walked on water" (matthew 14:22-33), that person is claiming TO KNOW there was an historical figure names jesus and that he, unaided by technology, literally walked across the surface of the water. This is a knowledge claim...an objective statement of fact.

Your religious beliefs typically depend on the community in which you were raised or lived. The spiritual experiences of people in ancient greece, medieval japan or 21st century saudia arabia do not lead to belief in christianity. It seems, therefore, that religious belief very likely tracks not truth but social conditioning.

Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010, 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick & Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997, 2011, Smith 1979, STenger & Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc)

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth. Here are five points believers/non believers should be able to agree upon.

1) There are different faith traditions.
2) Different faith traditions make different truth claims.
3) The truth claims of some faith traditions contradict the truth claims of other faith traditions. For example, Muslims believe muhammad (570-632) was the last prophet (Sura 33:40). Mormons believe Joseph Smith (1805-1844), who lived after muhammad was a prophet.
4) It cannot both be the case that muhammad was the last prophet, and someone who lived after him was also a prophet.
5) Therefore: At LEAST one of these claims must be false....perhaps both....

it is impossible to figure out which of these claims is incorrect if the tool one uses is faith. As a tool, as an epistemology, as a method of reasoning, as a process for knowing the world, faith cannot adjudicate between competing claims. The ONLY way to figure out which claims about the world are likely true, and which are likely false, is through reason and evidence. There is no other way.


Okay, I will check back to see how you are evolving later, off to the gym.

This is a wall of nonsense. You seem to confuse supernatural claims with the Teachings of Jesus Christ which doesn't demand belief. The Teachings of Jesus are love, forgiveness, mercy, patience, humility, charity, equality and from the time that our modern society is the result of those teachings and the welbeing comes only from those there is no need to disbelieve them because even atheists embrace Humanism (when the Epicureans didn't) and Humanism was created because of Christianity Teachings by Patriarch Photios in the 12th century, Atheism didn't offered anything to Humanism, Scientific thinking, society only 170 million deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_s...enaissance

The miracles of Jesus had taken place to teach and not to impress. It can be shown that two miracles had taken place and science has proven them, the ressurection of Jesus as light and the split of the red sea.

Jesus prophesied that he will be ressurect as light (the light of the world) and the image on the Shroud could only happen with UV light (a technology that will appear 2000 years later).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...light.html

They even replicated the experiement in front of the camera here and the image was shaped exactly like the Shroud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJPJ4JwHeE

The Shroud is the physical proof of Jesus Christ, the DNA of the blood in the Shroud matches the bones of John the Baptist who were found and they were cousins with Jesus.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...ce-higham/

In case you say that the Shroud is a Medieval forgery

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/28...71850.html

Here is the part about the red sea

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scien...pened.html

Miracles are not supernatural in the sense that Science can't observe them, they happenned in the material world and its your choice to say that they were natural or they intented to happened.

Spirituality is another thing, obviously people before Christ didn't taugh the whole Truth neither they claimed it to but their teachings offen are used by Atheists as proof that Christ was not original but i think that argument turns against them because God spoke to all the people of all nations. Another thing to remember is that the West civilization who was created because of Christianity affected the rest of the World.
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