[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
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14-06-2016, 04:07 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 03:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Wouldn't that be great, and give us something to discuss, rather than shutting conversation down?

Um... I don't think it was a put down. The gun issue in the US *is* complicated, not just by crazy people wanting to hold onto their guns at all cost. For example, there are many states with some variants of gun control laws. We who look in from the outside just see the right to bear arms in the constitution and kinda interpret it to mean that all able bodied American men are entitled to buy any gun that they like - a bit of a Wild West society. In reality - and I am no expert, all I've done is read Wikipedia articles - there's obviously a lot of people inside the US who've done serious work on gun legislation. At the same time they have close to the world's highest gun ownership rate as well as a vocal lobby on the pro-gun side of the debate - a definite factor to consider when talking about gun control.

Chas's point is fair IMO - if we're gonna have a meaningful discussion then we also need to use correct terminology. And it's a reason why I avoid the debate usually - I don't live in the US and have little motivation to research their gun culture or gun laws. Just occasionally I can't help myself Tongue Personally I *do* think that the pro-gun people I've met on the forum are in fact, slightly nuts.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-06-2016, 05:10 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
LOL... I'd love to know just how many firearms "experts" here have actually fired a gun, any gun. (Don't bother asking, I have.)

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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14-06-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 05:10 PM)SYZ Wrote:  LOL... I'd love to know just how many firearms "experts" here have actually fired a gun, any gun. (Don't bother asking, I have.)

I'm no expert, and I've fired quite a few. That's not a brag, I'm a terrible shot. You do not want me on your side in a fire fight. Tongue

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14-06-2016, 06:01 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 01:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 11:47 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Aimed fire requires a sight-picture, which recoil disrupts.
Rather than being stupid, you could get the point that I'm making.

I know your tactic, try to discredit me because I'm not a gun enthusiast and hence am not up with all the jargon. But rather than be pedantic, try to get the point.

The point being, well, I'll let you think about it. Why is a semi-automatic more preferable to a single shot bolt action if you are going to shoot multiple people?

Rather than talking down to me, you could be civil ... but that's apparently asking an awful lot of you. I'll read the rest of your post and answer if I can when you rephrase your question in a civil manner.

Until then, I won't be bothered. I hope your day gets better.
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14-06-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 05:53 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 05:10 PM)SYZ Wrote:  LOL... I'd love to know just how many firearms "experts" here have actually fired a gun, any gun. (Don't bother asking, I have.)

I'm no expert, and I've fired quite a few. That's not a brag, I'm a terrible shot. You do not want me on your side in a fire fight. Tongue

I qualified as "Expert" in the USAF (40/40 @ 100 yes) ... been shooting since I was 9 years old.

But I'm no expert on firearms.
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14-06-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Um... I don't think it was a put down.
I think there is an aspect of put down, he certainly made no effort to try and understand the question and no effor to try and respond to it. Just pointed out your mistake and stopped there.
If both sides can't talk then how can we come to common understandings?
I work in computers and if someone who knows little about computers starts talking to me and uses incorrect termanology, I don't just point out their mistake and then ignore the question that they were probably asking. What sense would there be in that? I would just come across as being smug and arrogant and trying to make myself out to be intellectually superior. Then the person trying to discuss computers with me would feel belittled, wouldn't like me and wouldn't want to have a conversation with me about computers, when actually, I might be a great person for another to discuss computers with.
Morondog, I think you do probably have some good input and some good smarts and its a shame that others make you feel inadequte to get involved in a discussion on gun control. You are probably open minded enough to listen to both sides of the equation and to try to understand where both sides are coming from. That would be great if you could get there. But for that to happen, people need to have engaged conversation and take some effort to get conversation to flow. Stopping conversation because there is a jargon issue doesn't help. Jargon is easy to overcome especially if you can work out what is meant rather than being worried about the exact choice of words used. If you can't work out what is meant then ask for clarification and when clarification is given then continue.
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  The gun issue in the US *is* complicated, not just by crazy people wanting to hold onto their guns at all cost.
There are people like that, I have had conversations with them online. "Govt aren't going to come steal my guns", "They'd have to take if from my dead body", "That's what China, Russia did, they took people's guns" etc
I've listed a few of my thoughts.
Chas just responded that I am speculating and stated he is insulted. No information was freely provided to debunk or further add to the list. Hence a conversation stopper again.
I pointed out that I thought some of the reluctance (for some people) towards gun control might be: <sure I agree this is speculation, but I have got to this perception after having many conversations with gun entusiasts, perhaps I'm reading between the lines, but I am happy to be corrected rather than just someone pointing out that I am speculating. There is no value in that response, no open conversation!>
- Rights (insistance on it being a right to self protection, or merely a right to have a gun (perhaps due to 2nd ammendment)
- Patriotism for America and the perception of America being the flag bearer of freedom (in particular, freedom to have guns).
- Obligation to be a protector in society (perhaps a belief in a social obligation)
- A perception of one's self as a hero (tied to the point above)
- Guns being the top of mind issue (top item on political voting etc)
- Trophy hunters (admittidly this is probably very rare but one of those Only In America things)
- People frustrated and grumpy with wrong doers percieving they have the legal right to shoot people on their property.
I didn't just make this stuff up.
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  ...all I've done is read Wikipedia articles...
Yes, well, we have some real live people on this forum, who are really into guns and you would think we have an opportunity to talk to them about it. But it seems to me that they don't want to talk, they actively try to shut conversation down.
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Chas's point is fair IMO - if we're gonna have a meaningful discussion then we also need to use correct terminology.
Sure, but they don't need to stop the conversation, they can point out the mistake, get the gist of what we are asking or saying and run with that. There is no value in just pointing out mistakes and then ignoring the question or the topic.
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  And it's a reason why I avoid the debate usually - I don't live in the US and have little motivation to research their gun culture or gun laws. Just occasionally I can't help myself Tongue
I don't think gun control is a USA thing. It can be talked about independant of USA.
It's a shame, because there are real people here who live and breath guns, they have done some research and are capable of providing information but they don't seem to want to have discussions with people that are for gun control. As I say, they just shut conversation down.
(14-06-2016 04:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  Personally I *do* think that the pro-gun people I've met on the forum are in fact, slightly nuts.
There is degrees of nuttiness.
I would put onlinebiker at the top of the nutty factor, he really says some outlandish things.
On the other end is chas, who doesn't appear to be so gun nutty, but is incredibly difficult to have a conversation with. He comes across as arrogant and obtuse and shuts conversation down (IMO).
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14-06-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(14-06-2016 06:01 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 01:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Rather than being stupid, you could get the point that I'm making.

I know your tactic, try to discredit me because I'm not a gun enthusiast and hence am not up with all the jargon. But rather than be pedantic, try to get the point.

The point being, well, I'll let you think about it. Why is a semi-automatic more preferable to a single shot bolt action if you are going to shoot multiple people?

Rather than talking down to me, you could be civil ... but that's apparently asking an awful lot of you. I'll read the rest of your post and answer if I can when you rephrase your question in a civil manner.

Until then, I won't be bothered. I hope your day gets better.
I'm not talking down to you. Of course I am wondering why you bring up this crap about "sight-picture".
The discussion was about the difference between a bolt action and a semi automatic with regards to taking multiple shots.
Of course there is a degree of re-aiming after each shot for both guns due to recoil movement.
But with the bolt action you can't just shoot, reaim and shoot. You need to move the bolt, that also disrupts your aim and it takes your finger off the trigger. This extra disruption is avoided with a semi-automatic.

I mean, if your goal was to shoot several targets as quickly as possible, would you go for a semi over a bolt action? Why?

It makes no sense to go off and talk about "sight-picture" that adds nothing to the discussion.
It's like worring about the a fly pooing on your ceiling when your house is on fire.
Why even bother talking about the fly and why avoid talking about the fire?
It's such a common tactic in these gun debates, incredibly frustrating for a person who actually wants to have an engaged conversation.
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14-06-2016, 07:00 PM
[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 07:12 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Ok, so I am anti-gun but not for banning all guns.

I may have asked you this before so bare with me on this.

What guns would you allow if you had complete say over the subject?
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14-06-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
I don't know much about guns. I have a hand gun and a semi automatic rifle. I have these specific ones because they were recommended to me. And, yes, I do know how to shoot them and am a pretty good shot.

The hand gun is for self defense. The rifle is for cougar or bear attacks - these don't tend to stop coming at you and you need to fire multiple shots fast.

I am the kind of person who tends to cover the "what if"s in life. So that is why I have guns. I am not a gun fanatic at all.

While I see some use in semi automatics (see above) I really don't think they are necessary, and I do think they should be banned.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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14-06-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
"Consider the situation: Gun crimes are on the rise, and the guns that criminals use are military-style weapons, capable of firing rounds with unprecedented speed and ferocity. Cities—where more people live than ever before—are becoming unsafe. The United States leads other industrialized countries in gun-related deaths. And scores of citizens, including the liberal president, are calling for action.”

But this isn’t 2016. It’s 1934—a year in which the United States faced unprecedented challenges from a new kind of gun and a new kind of criminal, and the country responded with new laws.

That Time Mob Violence Inspired Gun Control in America
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/...picks=true
A good thing too, imagine the current assholes with Tommy Guns.

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