[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
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12-06-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 06:16 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:49 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You realize that FAR more people are killed every year by vehicles in the USA than guns, don't you?
I can only hope you posted this disingenuous comment as a joke. I'm sure you wouldn't be silly enough to actually believe such a nonsensical comparison.
...

IKR.

Has anyone got any data relating to hours of gun-use per person per day as a comparison with hours of vehicle-use per person per day?

I suspect that if that data exists, it would highlight the weakness of the argument.

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12-06-2016, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2016 07:16 PM by Brian37.)
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 06:16 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:49 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You realize that FAR more people are killed every year by vehicles in the USA than guns, don't you?
I can only hope you posted this disingenuous comment as a joke. I'm sure you wouldn't be silly enough to actually believe such a nonsensical comparison.

Quote:I don't hear you harping about "The Big Three" making huge profits out of American's deaths.
Oh dear. See above.

Quote:You don't like guns.......
Fine...
DON'T BUY ONE....
problem solved....
So if Brian—and other anti-gun folks—don't buy any guns, then that magically stops armed psychopaths killing dozens of innocent people? Yeah... that sure makes sense. Not.


WOE hold on now. Lets take the prefix "anti" in the same context of "anti-theist". I am anti-gun only in the sense that if enough people wouldn't worship them blindly they would discover that they don't really need them. Ok, so I am anti-gun but not for banning all guns. I am only against our current worship climate, much the same way I am against any Muslim willing to murder over the Quran because you picked on it. I still don't delude myself in either case that there is a utopia.

I am anti violence, but the climate of blind gun "do nothing" climate the right protects that allows for our flooded gun market yes, I am against that. But I am under no illusions that I will end up with a perfect world either. The denial of gun death violence the right props up is a delusion.

So yes and no. I am anti-gun in the sense that people confuse what they want, with what they really need. Most people merely want them, much like people feel the need to believe in a god, but we know that is superfluous. Even with that, I am not so ridged as to allow the right to think I am out to create a fascist state. If anyone is doing that it is the NRA presuming that mere voting is crime and only they get to dictate what our gun laws are.

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12-06-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 06:39 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 06:16 PM)SYZ Wrote:  So if Brian—and other anti-gun folks—don't buy any guns, then that magically stops armed psychopaths killing dozens of innocent people? Yeah... that sure makes sense. Not.


The problem is that if you take guns, you aren't going to stop shootings. Criminals aren't going to give up guns if they were made illegal. The problem is also that it isn't guns in the first place. There are various factors when it comes to gun violence. I can agree that we should try to make gun policies the best we can, but taking guns is not the solution, nor is blaming them.

Bull fucking shit. This is an old fucking argument. It isn't about taking anything, it is about volume made and prevention. The left isn't fucking stupid. Stop acting like we are stupid.

The GOP cried about preventing terrorists from getting them, but recently blocked a bill that could have stopped this guy.

The GOP cried about blaming the mentally ill but never acted on the Va Tech shooter.

Cant have it both ways McFly.

Cant pretend you actually care, which his really what you are doing, then do nothing when something happens. Gun worship works exactly like god belief. When you get called out on bad logic, the goal posts move.

I agree there ARE various factors, but the biggest one preventing any type of change is obstruction.

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12-06-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 06:57 PM)Vosur Wrote:  There are an estimated 347 million guns in the US right now (that's more than one gun per capita, statistically speaking). Any attempt to bring this situation under control is coming about a hundred years too late.

No shit Sherlock!
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12-06-2016, 08:10 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2016 08:16 PM by Einharjar.)
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
I've never blamed the weapon. I've always blamed the culture.

We've got a poisonous culture, infectiously attributed to the Entitlement Idealism thanks to the Baby Boomer generation. Any Socialist idea is anti-capitalist, Any critique of religion is immoral and any thought of regulating the Gun market is some how Un-American.

As one who grew up with literally dozens of guns at his disposal, I had an innate respect for these weapons. I knew they were meant to kill, so I respected them and in a sense, feared them.
On the analogy about cars? Well that comparison isn't as bad as people think - you don't see people showing as much respect to a car's possibility as a weapon as they do a gun, right? it's all about the culture. My analytical mind easily put two and two together and realized that, yeah, even cars are dangerous as fuck, be careful with them. Be respectful. Be responsible.

But we have a self centered society who thinks it's OK to Drink and Drive despite how it's constantly educated that it's a bad idea. Note however, that we don't blame the car. We blame the choice to drink and drive. We don't even blame the alcohols.
Same goes for guns with me. The gun is an inanimate object. It doesn't do anything unless a shooter acts upon it. Another human. The same human that some how thought it was a good idea to get fucking smashed and then drive through a venue or some shit.

It's the person.

It's the culture.
I'm for some regulation, but this is a deep problem that goes beyond regulation. It's true that the NRA lobby's like a mofo to cock block bills that would other wise limit sales. Some of these shootings could've been stopped with a simple back ground check that would've prevented the purchase of a fire arm.
We're not stopping sales, just putting the same regulation that says that if you're 21, you shouldn't be going to Wal-Mart and buying beer. At 2 am.

This country is a state of hypocrisy. I swear.

In light of that, however; I'm one who's pretty convinced at the evidence of the Forbidden Fruit Effect. Simply denying or overly regulating access to something provokes the only truth the bible ever spat out - placing an object or knowledge in front of man and saying "don't mess with it" only incites curiousity. Because we're a culture that's afraid of truth and enlightenment, we have a culture that on one side, thinks it's either an all or nothing matter - either deny gay people rights or make guns easily purchasable by everyone (including toddlers) while the other side thinks "regulate everything and everything is offensive, OMG My feelings!" - a clear sign of stupidity on both fronts.

You can't regulate choice (Dems). You can't deny choice exists (Reps). The best you can do is educate a society, embrace enlightenment values and finally come to, admitting that racism only exists because we teach it, religion is a danger to mankind and needs to be challenged by teaching rational and critical thought, pure capitalism is probably not as good as you think and ideas are a dime a dozen, but some one actually acting on them is what we really should look for. We need to ask real questions. We need to actually act on our insights, not just tweet about them and think we're charitable.

The real questions that need to be asks will never be asked. This dude that shot up the pub was a straight up homophobe because of his belief system. A belief system that we constantly victimize in the media instead of taking it like adults and realizing that the Islamic world is fucked up.
No one wants to admit this. But I will.


*clears throat* Eh hem.
Hi, I'm Einharjar - I treat Islam with respect, and even a little bit of fear. I understand that like guns? It's meant to kill. However, unlike an object, this is perpetrated by individuals. I cannot condemn an object that has no sentience, but I can condemn a culture of people who's chosen belief embraces a culture of violence, hatred and discord. Thank you.

I've known many that are great people, but there's no excuse. Just read the fucking scriptures like you do the Bible and you'll see the problem. I cannot in my mind truly blame the gun for this, for if it wasn't for what this asshole believed - that gun would've never even left the holster, much less have been chambered.
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12-06-2016, 09:26 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 07:40 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 06:57 PM)Vosur Wrote:  There are an estimated 347 million guns in the US right now (that's more than one gun per capita, statistically speaking). Any attempt to bring this situation under control is coming about a hundred years too late.

No shit Sherlock!

No not "no shit Sherlock", this is the bullshit "bad shit happens so do nothing"

Doing nothing is why we have the amount of gun death we do.

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12-06-2016, 10:58 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 07:28 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Bull fucking shit. This is an old fucking argument. It isn't about taking anything, it is about volume made and prevention. The left isn't fucking stupid. Stop acting like we are stupid.

Never blamed the left, that must have been a conclusion you jumped to.

(12-06-2016 07:28 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  The GOP cried about preventing terrorists from getting them, but recently blocked a bill that could have stopped this guy.

Source

(12-06-2016 07:28 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  The GOP cried about blaming the mentally ill but never acted on the Va Tech shooter.

What do you mean, the Va Tech Shooter was probably mentally ill. Mental illness is the problem.


(12-06-2016 07:28 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Cant pretend you actually care, which his really what you are doing, then do nothing when something happens. Gun worship works exactly like god belief. When you get called out on bad logic, the goal posts move.

Well I don't worship guns, I don't have one, and I want to move to a country where they are illegal, so now guns are not my life. Also some people do think that all guns should be taken, I did, but if you are not like that then I was not talking about you. Also don't say I don't care, that isn't accurate.

(12-06-2016 07:28 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I agree there ARE various factors, but the biggest one preventing any type of change is obstruction.

I agree there should be better regulations of guns, but mental illness is a very big problem.

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13-06-2016, 12:32 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 08:10 PM)Einharjar Wrote:  I've never blamed the weapon. I've always blamed the culture.

We've got a poisonous culture, infectiously attributed to the Entitlement Idealism thanks to the Baby Boomer generation. Any Socialist idea is anti-capitalist, Any critique of religion is immoral and any thought of regulating the Gun market is some how Un-American.

As one who grew up with literally dozens of guns at his disposal, I had an innate respect for these weapons. I knew they were meant to kill, so I respected them and in a sense, feared them.
On the analogy about cars? Well that comparison isn't as bad as people think - you don't see people showing as much respect to a car's possibility as a weapon as they do a gun, right? it's all about the culture. My analytical mind easily put two and two together and realized that, yeah, even cars are dangerous as fuck, be careful with them. Be respectful. Be responsible.

But we have a self centered society who thinks it's OK to Drink and Drive despite how it's constantly educated that it's a bad idea. Note however, that we don't blame the car. We blame the choice to drink and drive. We don't even blame the alcohols.
Same goes for guns with me. The gun is an inanimate object. It doesn't do anything unless a shooter acts upon it. Another human. The same human that some how thought it was a good idea to get fucking smashed and then drive through a venue or some shit.

It's the person.

It's the culture.
I'm for some regulation, but this is a deep problem that goes beyond regulation. It's true that the NRA lobby's like a mofo to cock block bills that would other wise limit sales. Some of these shootings could've been stopped with a simple back ground check that would've prevented the purchase of a fire arm.
We're not stopping sales, just putting the same regulation that says that if you're 21, you shouldn't be going to Wal-Mart and buying beer. At 2 am.

This country is a state of hypocrisy. I swear.

In light of that, however; I'm one who's pretty convinced at the evidence of the Forbidden Fruit Effect. Simply denying or overly regulating access to something provokes the only truth the bible ever spat out - placing an object or knowledge in front of man and saying "don't mess with it" only incites curiousity. Because we're a culture that's afraid of truth and enlightenment, we have a culture that on one side, thinks it's either an all or nothing matter - either deny gay people rights or make guns easily purchasable by everyone (including toddlers) while the other side thinks "regulate everything and everything is offensive, OMG My feelings!" - a clear sign of stupidity on both fronts.

You can't regulate choice (Dems). You can't deny choice exists (Reps). The best you can do is educate a society, embrace enlightenment values and finally come to, admitting that racism only exists because we teach it, religion is a danger to mankind and needs to be challenged by teaching rational and critical thought, pure capitalism is probably not as good as you think and ideas are a dime a dozen, but some one actually acting on them is what we really should look for. We need to ask real questions. We need to actually act on our insights, not just tweet about them and think we're charitable.

The real questions that need to be asks will never be asked. This dude that shot up the pub was a straight up homophobe because of his belief system. A belief system that we constantly victimize in the media instead of taking it like adults and realizing that the Islamic world is fucked up.
No one wants to admit this. But I will.


*clears throat* Eh hem.
Hi, I'm Einharjar - I treat Islam with respect, and even a little bit of fear. I understand that like guns? It's meant to kill. However, unlike an object, this is perpetrated by individuals. I cannot condemn an object that has no sentience, but I can condemn a culture of people who's chosen belief embraces a culture of violence, hatred and discord. Thank you.

I've known many that are great people, but there's no excuse. Just read the fucking scriptures like you do the Bible and you'll see the problem. I cannot in my mind truly blame the gun for this, for if it wasn't for what this asshole believed - that gun would've never even left the holster, much less have been chambered.

Well said. Thank you.

We are past the point of reasonable disarmament, so education is obviously the only tool we have left. The problem is that our educational system has been held hostage at the point of a gun...

We're gonna have to fuck up Texas with drones and let god sort it out, that's all there is to it... Drinking Beverage

Dodgy

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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13-06-2016, 01:32 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2016 01:37 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(12-06-2016 06:39 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  The problem is that if you take guns, you aren't going to stop shootings. Criminals aren't going to give up guns if they were made illegal.

Making rape illegal didnt stop a certain guy from raping. Making murder illegal doesnt stop all the murderes who are sitting in the jails of the country with the highest inmate/population ratio in the world.

According to your theory, we shouldnt even try to stop rapists and murderers, because we will never catch them all. Dont you see how utterly irrational this argument is?

Sorry, usually i am staying away from these gun-law discussions, because guns are clearly even a worse problem than religion in the USA, because seemingly even more people stick to even more silly beliefs for even worse reasons. But this kind of nonsense makes me so mad.

But unlike religion, as long as the americans keep killing each i dont have to be as worried as having a batshit crazy fundie POTUS. *sarcasm OFF*

If people dont see that guns and the average persons ease of access to them are the root cause of the high number of gun related deaths in this country, then i dont see a reason even to begin arguing with (people like) you.

It really makes me sad when i see even dozens of children, yes children shot by crazy gunmen, and people still stand up and find excuses. Once again, just like the bible and slavery. Its insane.

On the other hand i agree with Vosur. If there is indeed more than 300mio firearms, then its maybe too late anyway.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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13-06-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
People are violent.
You want to stop the violence... cure the people.

Guns are just tools.

I don't see anyone having six fits about addressing the cause of the violence, only the end results. Guns are not the cause, they are only the tool. The reason we continue to go round and round on this same issue every time someone kills a bunch of people is because anti-gun people want an easy fix of remove the tools. That's not a fix, it's just a distraction and a lazy one at that.

When you decide to address the fix, curing the violence, I'll listen, until then, no.

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