[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
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18-06-2016, 06:00 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point was that a mass murderer is by definition mentally ill.

The problem is that a mass murderer may not show symptoms - scary enough symptoms - that they will be identified ahead of time as a risk and prevented from getting the weapons that they need to commit the murders.

So you've got a couple of choices - make the weapons harder to obtain, or somehow screen better for mental health.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-06-2016, 06:02 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point was that a mass murderer is by definition mentally ill.
So you've got a couple of choices - make the weapons harder to obtain, or somehow screen better for mental health.

Or both.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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18-06-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:02 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 06:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  So you've got a couple of choices - make the weapons harder to obtain, or somehow screen better for mental health.

Or both.

That's crazy talk.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-06-2016, 06:09 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 06:02 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  Or both.

That's crazy talk.

I've never been known to be sane.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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18-06-2016, 06:42 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
That's crazy talk.

Indeed. Any discussion regarding mental health is crazy talk, by definition.

So, all, I have a question / thought experiment ...

If there was a yes / no referendum and your choices were:

A) Freedom rocks! There is a price to pay for that but we should not be prevented from buying guns if we want them.

B) The price of freedom is too high. All guns will be removed. No exceptions. If you own one or carry one ... you are a criminal.

Vote now!

Supplementary question:
If you voted for A), what would be the tipping point to change your vote to B)? Quantify that however you like (by number of dead or percentage of population or perhaps the loss of one loved-one).

Consider

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18-06-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Indeed. Any discussion regarding mental health is crazy talk, by definition.

So, all, I have a question / thought experiment ...

If there was a yes / no referendum and your choices were:

A) Freedom rocks! There is a price to pay for that but we should not be prevented from buying guns if we want them.

B) The price of freedom is too high. All guns will be removed. No exceptions. If you own one or carry one ... you are a criminal.

Vote now!

Supplementary question:
If you voted for A), what would be the tipping point to change your vote to B)? Quantify that however you like (by number of dead or percentage of population or perhaps the loss of one loved-one).

Consider

I don't think it's helpful to put the discussion in such absolutes, but if it had to be one or the other and it would actually be that way then absolutely B. No question.

In this thought experiment I'm assuming that all guns would be collected and disposed of, no criminals would have them either. That would be the only rational choice given our current circumstance. Not that it's possible...

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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18-06-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point was that a mass murderer is by definition mentally ill.

I know that, Chas -- that's exactly why I wrote "I get where you're coming from; I'm inclined to think of anyone who does this sort of thing as mentally ill by definition."

My point is that neither you nor I are mental-health professionals, and our feelings don't have the body of knowledge requisite to make such a diagnosis of this or that strain of mental illness. With that being the case, I assign more gravity to the informed opinions of professionals in the field.
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18-06-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 09:58 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 06:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Indeed. Any discussion regarding mental health is crazy talk, by definition.

So, all, I have a question / thought experiment ...

If there was a yes / no referendum and your choices were:

A) Freedom rocks! There is a price to pay for that but we should not be prevented from buying guns if we want them.

B) The price of freedom is too high. All guns will be removed. No exceptions. If you own one or carry one ... you are a criminal.

Vote now!

Supplementary question:
If you voted for A), what would be the tipping point to change your vote to B)? Quantify that however you like (by number of dead or percentage of population or perhaps the loss of one loved-one).

Consider

I don't think it's helpful to put the discussion in such absolutes, but if it had to be one or the other and it would actually be that way then absolutely B. No question.

In this thought experiment I'm assuming that all guns would be collected and disposed of, no criminals would have them either. That would be the only rational choice given our current circumstance. Not that it's possible...

Why is not possible?

If the Pakistanis can create gun-free zones in Karachi given how far back they're starting and their limited resources compared to the Yanks, one has to assume it's only not possible because too many people prefer option A) rather than for any logistical reason.

Cultural change isn't easy and it isn't cheap and it might take a generation to become sustainable but it's not impossible.

Murikans aren't usually known for being defeatist, now are they?

Angel

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18-06-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
Most Australians I have spoken to are just dumbfounded at the American gun culture.
If I may give my own perspective it is this....Guns are killing machines, they are not toys but if you allow them to be accessed as readily as toys people will die, often children.
How can anyone say that 'I accept that my right to own this toy comes at a cost and the cost is measured in the blood of children"?
To me it is hard to imagine a more selfish attitude It is just mind boggling.
The issue is not mental illness or religion although they are contributing factors. The issue is that gun shops are more common in America than Starbucks which I am told are ubiquitous. If everyone has ready access to efficient people killing machines the consequences are obvious.... you get America. Terrifying, selfish and above all STUPID.
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18-06-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 11:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 09:58 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  I don't think it's helpful to put the discussion in such absolutes, but if it had to be one or the other and it would actually be that way then absolutely B. No question.

In this thought experiment I'm assuming that all guns would be collected and disposed of, no criminals would have them either. That would be the only rational choice given our current circumstance. Not that it's possible...

Why is not possible?

If the Pakistanis can create gun-free zones in Karachi given how far back they're starting and their limited resources compared to the Yanks, one has to assume it's only not possible because too many people prefer option A) rather than for any logistical reason.

Cultural change isn't easy and it isn't cheap and it might take a generation to become sustainable but it's not impossible.

Murikans aren't usually known for being defeatist, now are they?

Angel

Possible, but would take a very long time. Would need a more quick temporary solution to get through until that would be possible.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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