[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
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18-06-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 03:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 12:05 PM)Aussie heathen Wrote:  Most Australians I have spoken to are just dumbfounded at the American gun culture.
In NZ the sentiment is exactly the same. These Americans are crazy. We hear of yet another mass shooting in America or hear about the horrendous statistics of American gun homicides and (as tragic as it is) we shrug our shoulders, we laugh it off, these crazy Americans and their wild west attitudes, their insistence on the right to guns.

When you have conversations with those Americans online, it just reinforces that. They don't at all present rational arguments.

(18-06-2016 12:05 PM)Aussie heathen Wrote:  How can anyone say that 'I accept that my right to own this toy comes at a cost and the cost is measured in the blood of children"?

To me it is hard to imagine a more selfish attitude It is just mind boggling.
I think there are many causes. I've listed a few in this thread, Chas got insulted.

Here's another one. A NZ politician wrote this column for the local rag.
I would be wishing for a gun
Quote:I would not want to be shot crouching in a toilet cubicle begging for my life. I would rather fight back even if my situation was hopeless.
I think it is a common sentiment, the fear of being defenseless. Probably why some people are scared of flying, thinking if the plane is crashing you have plenty of time to think about your impending doom, but have no control over it.

Hasn't anyone taught you not to generalize. Seriously, you have way too much hate. Good thing you don't like guns because I would be scared if one got into your hands.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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18-06-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 11:12 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 05:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point was that a mass murderer is by definition mentally ill.

I know that, Chas -- that's exactly why I wrote "I get where you're coming from; I'm inclined to think of anyone who does this sort of thing as mentally ill by definition."

My point is that neither you nor I are mental-health professionals, and our feelings don't have the body of knowledge requisite to make such a diagnosis of this or that strain of mental illness. With that being the case, I assign more gravity to the informed opinions of professionals in the field.

I guess I haven't made myself clear. I am not talking about particular diagnoses or professionals' opinions of mass murderers,
just that mass murder is prima facie evidence of mental illness. Res ipsa loquitur.

We need to improve health care and we need to research the causes of the behavior.
Professionals will do the latter, we have a say in the former.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2016, 09:55 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
No, you've made yourself clear, and as I've said (for the third time now) I'm inclined to agree, but doubt my qualifications. My opinion is a layman's, as is yours.
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18-06-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 06:10 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Hasn't anyone taught you not to generalize. Seriously, you have way too much hate. Good thing you don't like guns because I would be scared if one got into your hands.
I actually like guns. I've fired a few, and had some fun with them.

I just don't think it makes any sense to make some kinds of guns available to everyone and I don't think it makes sense to have people wandering around public places with loaded guns.
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19-06-2016, 04:34 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 11:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 06:10 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Hasn't anyone taught you not to generalize. Seriously, you have way too much hate. Good thing you don't like guns because I would be scared if one got into your hands.
I actually like guns. I've fired a few, and had some fun with them.

I just don't think it makes any sense to make some kinds of guns available to everyone and I don't think it makes sense to have people wandering around public places with loaded guns.

The gunners have this "with us or against us!" attitude. If you say anything they construe as anti-gun you are the enemy, a coward, and a fool. This is the core of their obstreperous brow-beating. Luckily it just usually makes them look buffoonish.
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19-06-2016, 04:59 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(19-06-2016 04:34 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I actually like guns. I've fired a few, and had some fun with them.

I just don't think it makes any sense to make some kinds of guns available to everyone and I don't think it makes sense to have people wandering around public places with loaded guns.

The gunners have this "with us or against us!" attitude. If you say anything they construe as anti-gun you are the enemy, a coward, and a fool. This is the core of their obstreperous brow-beating. Luckily it just usually makes them look buffoonish.

Whereas the anti-gunners have this other "with us or against us" attitude. I you say anything they construe as pro-gun - you are the enemy, a coward, and "you drink the NRA's kool-aide" (paraphrase). Luckily it just makes them look like a cunt.

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19-06-2016, 05:23 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(19-06-2016 04:59 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(19-06-2016 04:34 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The gunners have this "with us or against us!" attitude. If you say anything they construe as anti-gun you are the enemy, a coward, and a fool. This is the core of their obstreperous brow-beating. Luckily it just usually makes them look buffoonish.

Whereas the anti-gunners have this other "with us or against us" attitude. I you say anything they construe as pro-gun - you are the enemy, a coward, and "you drink the NRA's kool-aide" (paraphrase). Luckily it just makes them look like a cunt.
Yeah, and it chaps your ass when we act like you.
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19-06-2016, 06:42 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 01:07 PM)Aussie heathen Wrote:  It is not necessary to destroy all guns to make an impact. Here in Australia illegal guns can be purchased but the price is prohibitive. An illegal handgun in Australia can fetch $15.000 or even $20,000. Ideally only people with legitimate need for firearms would get them, practically we can make them very difficult to find and very expensive thereby putting them out of reach for many.

$20,000?

I could (hypothetically, of course Angel ) drive to any major city and buy one illegally for only $20. Now, one that cheap probably has blood on it and the police are probably looking for it as evidence in a crime, and most certainly isn't the most high-end model to begin with, but hey... $20 for a gun, no background check or Brady waiting, no paper trail... it's a gun fetishists wet dream!

I'm starting to think that the whole criminal/LAC (law-abiding citizen) debate is a matter of envy. Hobo

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19-06-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 03:34 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  



good listen here

Did anybody happen to listen to Sam Harris's talking points? He's a very smart dude and I think he makes a lot of sense on this topic.
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19-06-2016, 07:51 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(18-06-2016 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:12 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I know that, Chas -- that's exactly why I wrote "I get where you're coming from; I'm inclined to think of anyone who does this sort of thing as mentally ill by definition."

My point is that neither you nor I are mental-health professionals, and our feelings don't have the body of knowledge requisite to make such a diagnosis of this or that strain of mental illness. With that being the case, I assign more gravity to the informed opinions of professionals in the field.

I guess I haven't made myself clear. I am not talking about particular diagnoses or professionals' opinions of mass murderers,
just that mass murder is prima facie evidence of mental illness. Res ipsa loquitur.

We need to improve health care and we need to research the causes of the behavior.
Professionals will do the latter, we have a say in the former.

This is a bullshit dodge. Mass shooters are always disturbed, religious or mentally ill. Even if we took out all the mass shootings, most gun injuries and deaths still happen in the home with the user or someone the owner knows.

The bottom line, handgun or assault riffle they are still far too much mass produced and they are way too easy to get, both legally and illegally.

I am fucking sick of the gun worshipers while rightfully saying "we want to keep them out of the wrong hands", which gun safety advocates want as well, then scream when anything is suggested to reduce gun deaths and play a fucking shell game.

"Don't blame the object", nope... We blame the marketing of the object and the attitude towards the object. A Quran is also only an object, it cant kill you all by itself. How is it we rightfully in the west criticize Muslim's attitudes about that object?

"It's the mentally ill", yet we did nothing after Newton or the Va Tech shooter who were mentally ill.

"It's the terrorists", in this case of Orlando, it is shaping up that while it was religious motivated, it seems that this guy was mentally ill and that religion merely compounded his mental illness. And it ignores that Roof wasn't motivated by Islam nor was last year's abortion clinic shooter.

Now the left is not out to punish anyone, nor do we want to become a fascist state. That bullshit lie needs to stop and the right and NRA are not going to get away with selling that bullshit anymore.

This is about MONEY in the end, and the makers pulling the same bullshit that big tobacco did with "smoker's rights" to hide the health risks of smoking and to desperately cling to marketing cigarettes to minors.

It is the marketing of guns that have shaped the attitudes towards them. Just like we don't like the marketing of the Quran in the middle east. You cant rid the world of guns no, no more than Islam can rid the world of the bible. But we can change the way we view those objects as being less important than human lives.

I blame the marketing, not an individuals intent which blinds them to a real problem.

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