[split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
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21-06-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 08:01 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 05:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  What were the rates prior to the buy back?
I couldn't find any statistics for gun-related homicides prior to our 1996 buyback, but the latest comparative figures are 1 per 1,000 population in Australia, versus 11 per 1,000 in the US. Although I'd like to point out that it's the decrease of 59% (as of 2013) in the rate of homicides that's the critical factor, rather than the raw number.

Yes, rates are the correct measure for comparison.

Quote:
Quote:Did the overall homicide rate fall as much as the firearm homicide rate?
Death by bladed weapons remained static, so the answer is yes. From 1979 to 1996, 11,110 Australians died by firearm—an average of 617 per year. In the seven years after the 1996 gun laws were implemented (1997 to 2003) the yearly average nearly halved to 331.

I think you have included all death by firearm, not just homicide. Consider

Quote:
Quote:Do you think Australian society and U.S. society are equivalent in all other factors?
No, not necessarily, although it's difficult I guess to make direct comparisons. Two of the main differentiators would be firearm ownership rates and religion.

I think there are other important differences, as well, e.g. income inequity, racial tension, drugs, gangs, mental health care, ...

Quote:
Quote:How does one correct for the differences?
Shut down the American NRA and compulsorily acquire and destroy all the (former) member's firearms? That'd take maybe 12 million guns out of circulation in one fell swoop. Big Grin

That's not what I meant. I meant when comparing statistics, how does one correct for variables.

As for your comment, shutting down the NRA would be illegal.
Destroying only (former) NRA members' guns would also be illegal. Consider

Quote:
Quote:OK. Since the buy back was voluntary, those were self-selected households. What effect would that have on the statistics?
It was indeed voluntary via a 12-month moratorium, but after that, if you were (are) found in possession of a prohibited firearm according to the new legislation (Section 7A of the Firearms Act 1996), the maximum penalty could be 5 years imprisonment. In addition, if you make a false declaration in order to get a firearms license, the maximum penalty could be 10 years imprisonment. Ouch.

I don't believe that "self-selection" would affect the buyback one way or the other. Obviously criminals wouldn't hand over their guns, regardless of it being voluntary or compulsory.

That would be one effect of self-selection, wouldn't it? Consider

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21-06-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
Brian, you need to learn how to discuss rather than harangue.
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21-06-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 08:04 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  Chas was pretty goddamn patient IMO.

Generally still applies. Consider

I very calmly told him to go fuck himself. Drinking Beverage

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21-06-2016, 10:04 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 08:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  ...
As for your comment, shutting down the NRA would be illegal.
Destroying only (former) NRA members' guns would also be illegal. Consider
...

Even if they were classified as a terrorist organisation?

Consider

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21-06-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 10:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 08:04 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Generally still applies. Consider

I very calmly told him to go fuck himself. Drinking Beverage

However, you DID admit to "generally". I'm still at "sometimes". Drinking Beverage
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21-06-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 10:17 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 10:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  I very calmly told him to go fuck himself. Drinking Beverage

However, you DID admit to "generally". I'm still at "sometimes". Drinking Beverage

Then your perception is faulty. Look at all the gun threads. Drinking Beverage

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21-06-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
Popcorn

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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21-06-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 07:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 07:42 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  FACT we have a gun death problem.

FACT, you don't give a fuck.

Cant dumb that down any further for you.

You are clearly confused. Now go fuck yourself.

You said I need help, now I am merely confused? Walking it back now aren't we?

Still does not change our gun death epidemic. Still does not change that the GOP/NRA obstruct every measure after lying saying they want to keep guns out of the wrong hands.

You sound like a theist arguing a holy book. You're interpreting it wrong.

You can go fuck yourself too. Nobody wants to ban all guns. Nobody wants a fascist state. We are simply tired of the bullshit lies and obstruction of one lobby and one industry.

You're just being a fucking crybaby because I am not fooled by your shell game.

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21-06-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 11:28 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 07:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are clearly confused. Now go fuck yourself.

You said I need help, now I am merely confused? Walking it back now aren't we?

Still does not change our gun death epidemic. Still does not change that the GOP/NRA obstruct every measure after lying saying they want to keep guns out of the wrong hands.

You sound like a theist arguing a holy book. You're interpreting it wrong.

You can go fuck yourself too. Nobody wants to ban all guns. Nobody wants a fascist state. We are simply tired of the bullshit lies and obstruction of one lobby and one industry.

You're just being a fucking crybaby because I am not fooled by your shell game.

I'm anti gun and I think going off like this does more harm than good.

Every state in the country has different gun laws, then on top of that the fed has some too. Chas' state is on the strict side.

We do have a problem in this country. But it's not really with guns as much as it is with crime, poverty, drugs, poor education and lousy mental health care.

Guns are the red herring. We can get rid of all the guns and we still have to deal with all these problems. if we actually stood up and did something about all these things, then the whole gun argument becomes more moot.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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21-06-2016, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2016 12:22 PM by Brian37.)
RE: [split] Gun Control (Orlando Mass Shooting)
(21-06-2016 09:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Brian, you need to learn how to discuss rather than harangue.

No I don't. We've compromised to fucking much and been polite too much and been a doormat too much to one lobby and one industry.

We would love nothing more for a collective effort for problem solving. But the gun safety advocates are responding to fear marketing, not promoting it, only the GOP and NRA are selling fear. There is only one party and one lobby responsible for the mentality that is allowing for all the gun death.

It is no different than the bullshit reaction that Ben Aflac had to Bill Maher over Islam.

If the GOP and NRA were really concerned with collective problem solving they would not be using scare tactic marketing every time a suggestion to do things differently gets presented to them.

Now let me simplify this for you.

If they cannot accept that gun safety advocates are not out to get them for merely saying the status quo is unacceptable. And if they still insist on demonizing anyone who criticizes the the decades of do nothing, I really don't see how being polite helps at this point.

To me what you are suggesting is pretending ISIS can be reasonable if you just be polite to them.

No! My HS yearbook from 1984 had a pic of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre has a picture of that mass shooting in it. You tell me how much more politeness will work, when a Columbine, and a grade school in Newtown and now Orlando.

The only thing I really want the GOP to stop doing, is allowing the NRA and gun makers control the narrative and stop painting any opposition as being evil. I am tired of being polite verbally about it.

It is no difference than saying "Islam, you don't have to go away, but you fear mongering sucks and you attitude about on book sucks".

I will not play nice with my words after all the failures to fix things. That does not mean I want anyone dead, but there is a time to be polite and a time not to be polite, the time for politeness to the GOP/NRA is gone. We've let them have their way and gotten no place.

They know this isn't about the 2nd Amendment. They know the left is not evil. They know it. This is nothing more for them a way to protect their money tit. This has never been about gun rights, this has always been about their money flow.

It is the same propaganda tactic Un uses to scare his population into protecting him. The NRA is simply using fear to protect gun factories. Fear sells. They know it, and that is how they keep their power.

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