[split] I need to rant to other atheists.
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13-06-2014, 05:13 PM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The sacrifice of The Christ absolved all mankind of all sin. Past, present and future. To think that what you do or believe or think has any effect at all on the scope of that sacrifice is the height of arrogance. Who was the fuckhead who got kicked out of heaven and condemned to rule the earth because of his arrogance? Oh yeah, Lucifer. You Christians are the true minions of Satan. All arrogant and shit like your worthless ass can tell God what to do.

It is not arrogant to simply relay to you what I think the Bible says. Numerous passages convey the idea that Christ's atoning work is efficacious only for those who believe in and trust Christ for the remission of their sins. For those that reject it they remain condemned.

FTFY

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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13-06-2014, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2014 05:21 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The sacrifice of The Christ absolved all mankind of all sin. Past, present and future. To think that what you do or believe or think has any effect at all on the scope of that sacrifice is the height of arrogance. Who was the fuckhead who got kicked out of heaven and condemned to rule the earth because of his arrogance? Oh yeah, Lucifer. You Christians are the true minions of Satan. All arrogant and shit like your worthless ass can tell God what to do.

It is not arrogant to simply relay to you what the Bible says. Numerous passages convey the idea that Christ's atoning work is efficacious only for those who believe in and trust Christ for the remission of their sins. For those that reject it they remain condemned.

Your christ is a pussy. "Hey peeps I'm outta here. Be good to each other. ... Oh and if you comment on my obit at my Facebook page I'll prebook you a reservation for a room in one of my father's many mansions. Peace. Out."

The Christ is not a pussy.

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Earlier I called your metaphysics childish. I retract that as per cjlr's point that children are far more metaphysically mature than you. You are metaphysically challenged. We got drugs for that.

#sigh
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13-06-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  We were discussing objectivity and what principles it rests upon and you are changing that to what others have to say about the grounds for objective morality. Evolution has nothing to do with this discussion. I'd like to bring the discussion back to the principle which you are evading, the metaphysical primacy of existence. The law of identity says that A is A. The primacy of existence says that A is A independently of anyone's consciousness, that A is an entity, that it is the object of consciousness not the subject. That means it is an absolute and not the subject of any consciousness including an all powerful god's.

The primacy of existence is a view that you must demonstrate to be true. You kind of just threw it out there like Ayn Rand and expect me to accept it.

What reasons do we have to hold it to be true?

Obviously If God is the source of all reality outside himself, which scripture clearly states in numerous passages that He is i.e.:

John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Then there is nothing that exists "independently" of Him but rather everything that exists is dependent upon Him. So it is clear that your extrapolation of the concept of the primacy of existence to argue that some entities exist independently of God is misguided.

Thus, this would completely destroy the PoE and show that the PoC is more tenable.

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  A is A alone does not form the basis of objective morality.

This concession is a step in the right direction. Continue...


(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  When combined with the primacy of existence it does. These principles form the basis of any rational epistemology which is the tool for discovering any objective fact.


Even if I agreed with the above it is a red herring. Epistemology is not what we are discussing but rather ontology.

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  The issue of metaphysical primacy is not some side discussion that you can ignore. It is fundamental to the concept "objectivity". It is the giant pink with polka dots elephant in the room when discussing objective truth.

But we are not discussing any of the above. We are discussing what makes certain moral statements statements of "fact".

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You continue to evade addressing this principle and the contradiction of it that your claim of an all powerful god represents.

I have addressed your need to provide a cogent argument for the veracity of a PoE view.

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is very simple, without the primacy of existence there is no such thing as objects of consciousness and therefore no such thing as objective truth. If a moral principle is objectively true it is true independent of anyone's wishes, likes, preferences, opinion, feelings, faith, hopes or tantrums.

Once again, your whole argument assumes I agree with the PoE. I need you to demonstrate to me why the PoE is true.

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Now what does the Christian world view have to say about the issue of metaphysical primacy. It holds that god's consciousness holds primacy over existence. This is the primacy of consciousness over existence which directly contradicts the primacy of existence and therefore the law of identity. If God's consciousness holds primacy then A can be non A.

The Christian worldview holds that God is the source of reality itself. That God creates reality by an exercise of His will and does so freely without constraint from any outside agency. So until you give me some reason to believe that the PoE is true, I will stick with what the Bible says.

(13-06-2014 05:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Therefore the Christian God can not be the source of objective moral principles since it contradicts the metaphysical principles that objectivity presupposes.

Your claims of an all powerful god negates the principle of objectivity and therefore objective moral values. If objective moral principles exist then your god can not exist.

This assumes the PoE is true which you have yet to demonstrate.

I will wait. Drinking Beverage
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13-06-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The sacrifice of The Christ absolved all mankind of all sin. Past, present and future. To think that what you do or believe or think has any effect at all on the scope of that sacrifice is the height of arrogance. Who was the fuckhead who got kicked out of heaven and condemned to rule the earth because of his arrogance? Oh yeah, Lucifer. You Christians are the true minions of Satan. All arrogant and shit like your worthless ass can tell God what to do.

It is not arrogant to simply relay to you what the Bible says. Numerous passages convey the idea that Christ's atoning work is efficacious only for those who believe in and trust Christ for the remission of their sins. For those that reject it they remain condemned.

I reject Jebus sacrifice . I don't agree with the idea of human sacrifice. It's stupid and disgusting. You are a sick , sick dude.
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13-06-2014, 07:37 PM
[split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:44 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Even if I agreed with the above it is a red herring. Epistemology is not what we are discussing but rather ontology.

Correct: if what you're arguing doesn't even qualify as knowledge, it's pointless to go through the ontology of finding it.

It's null and void ab initio, yet you still want to play word games about your invalid argument.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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14-06-2014, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2014 01:25 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
you wrote: The primacy of existence is a view that you must demonstrate to be true. You kind of just threw it out there like Ayn Rand and expect me to accept it.


You demonstrate it every time you make any truth claim. For instance does your God exist regardless of anyone's likes, dislikes, wishes, preferences or tantrums as a fact of reality or does his existence depend on your consciousness, your desires, your likes, your wishes, your subjective belief? If you answer the former, you affirm the primacy of existence.

You wrote: What reasons do we have to hold it to be true?

Because the concept "objective truth" presupposes and depends on it. If you can refute the primacy of existence I would like to see you do it.

You wrote: Obviously If God is the source of all reality outside himself, which scripture clearly states in numerous passages that He is i.e.:

John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Then there is nothing that exists "independently" of Him but rather everything that exists is dependent upon Him. So it is clear that your extrapolation of the concept of the primacy of existence to argue that some entities exist independently of God is misguided.

Thus, this would completely destroy the PoE and show that the PoC is more tenable.



If nothing exists independently of God's consciousness then there are no objects of God's consciousness and thus no basis for objective truth. This would mean that one side of the subject/object relationship, namely the object side, would be wiped out of existence and that would lead to the problem of divine loneliness. In other words it would lead to a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of, a contradiction. Consciousness presupposes existence.

I wrote: The issue of metaphysical primacy is not some side discussion that you can ignore. It is fundamental to the concept "objectivity". It is the giant pink with polka dots elephant in the room when discussing objective truth.


You wrote in response: But we are not discussing any of the above. We are discussing what makes certain moral statements statements of "fact".


I am discussing it. You are trying not to discuss it because you have no answer to it. any discussion of "facts" requires that we discuss the issue of metaphysical primacy. You can't escape it.

You wrote: I have addressed your need to provide a cogent argument for the veracity of a PoE view.

By the very act of asking me for a cogent argument you affirm the veracity of the primacy of existence. The concepts "argument" and "veracity" presuppose the primacy of existence.

You wrote: Once again, your whole argument assumes I agree with the PoE. I need you to demonstrate to me why the PoE is true.

Once again by the act of asking me to demonstrate that the PoE is true you have affirmed it. The concept "true" is dependent on it.

You wrote: The Christian worldview holds that God is the source of reality itself. That God creates reality by an exercise of His will and does so freely without constraint from any outside agency. So until you give me some reason to believe that the PoE is true, I will stick with what the Bible says.


Is the bible true regardless of anyone's wishes, preferences, likes, dislikes, hopes, fears, faith or tantrums or is the truth of the Bible dependent on your likes, dislikes, preferences, faith, wishes, fears or tantrums?

You wrote: This assumes the PoE is true which you have yet to demonstrate.

By the very act of asking me to demonstrate that the PoE is true, you affirm the primacy of existence. It is implied in any truth claim.

Jeremy, none of your objections refute the primacy of existence. I would like you to do that now.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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14-06-2014, 03:05 AM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The sacrifice of The Christ absolved all mankind of all sin. Past, present and future. To think that what you do or believe or think has any effect at all on the scope of that sacrifice is the height of arrogance. Who was the fuckhead who got kicked out of heaven and condemned to rule the earth because of his arrogance? Oh yeah, Lucifer. You Christians are the true minions of Satan. All arrogant and shit like your worthless ass can tell God what to do.

It is not arrogant to simply relay to you what the Bible says. Numerous passages convey the idea that Christ's atoning work is efficacious only for those who believe in and trust Christ for the remission of their sins. For those that reject it they remain condemned.

Fuck you and fuck your silly fairy tale book. And fuck you WITH your silly fucking fairy tale book.

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-06-2014, 03:11 AM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
... Just a side comment... I dunno if I'm being over sensitive here but... it makes me slightly tetchy that faggotry is viewed in such a negative light. Can't we just... leave it at stinking pile of shit?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-06-2014, 03:19 AM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(13-06-2014 05:44 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  This assumes the PoE is true which you have yet to demonstrate.

I will wait. Drinking Beverage

LMAO asshole -- the PoE is a REFUTATION of YOUR Omnimax assertion. It demonstrates the FOLLY of your idiotic assertion. We don't have to "prove" the PoE.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-06-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: [split] I need to rant to other atheists.
(10-06-2014 09:44 AM)kim Wrote:  Maybe you were just young and missed social queues.

*cues Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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