[split] Ignorance about anarchism
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16-05-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 04:59 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is a direct response to what you offer as a solution - moving.
Read nothing more into it, because every time you do that you get it wrong.

You conveniently avoided my question. I repeat:

You can pass any law or regulation or tax you want, and I won't protest so long as the jurisdictional lines are drawn so that those affected have the recourse of moving away if they find your rules too oppressive. Therefore, since I will accept any jurisdictional line that allows people to leave, why is this so offensive to you and non-negotiable that you insist the line must be drawn so that it covers precisely every square inch where those affected are legally allowed to move?

I've asked that question many times. Responding that "well moving is expensive" is just avoiding the question.

I haven't answered that question not because it is offensive, but because it assumes my position, it's argumentative, and it is not important.

We have jurisdictions already. If you want to discuss what laws should be at what jurisdictional level, than ask that question.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 04:57 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Citation needed. Bobby Fischer was NOT indicted and extradited for crimes committed within the US, but rather for (a) going to Yugoslavia, and (b) not sending the winnings back. This isn't disputed. I dare you to copy/paste one actual citation that says the indictment and extradition was over something he did BEFORE he expatriated. I'm waiting....

Just this once I will directly reply. Your timing is wrong he violated a US Order (he was informed of the consequences before hand) and then fled but never expatriated until he was held by the Japanese for using a suspended passport. Afterwards he was offered first an Alien passport by Iceland and when the Japanese refused to release him for that was granted full citizenship. Note I am not saying I agree with the order or the conduct by the Japanese but pretending the reason he was held was because he left the US is disingenuous at best and know you just plain lying because reality is inconvenient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fisch...ky_rematch

Quote:Fischer emerged after twenty years of isolation to play Spassky (then tied for 96th–102nd on the FIDE rating list) in a "Revenge Match of the 20th century" in 1992. This match took place in Sveti Stefan and Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in spite of a United Nations embargo that included sanctions on commercial activities. Fischer demanded that the organizers bill the match as "The World Chess Championship", although Garry Kasparov was the recognized FIDE World Champion. Fischer insisted he was still the true World Champion, and that for all the games in the FIDE-sanctioned World Championship matches, involving Karpov, Korchnoi, and Kasparov, the outcomes had been prearranged.[448] The purse for the rematch was US$5 million, with $3.35 million of the purse to go to the winner.[449] According to grandmaster Andrew Soltis:[450]

[The match games] were of a fairly high quality, particularly when compared with Kasparov's championship matches of 1993, 1995 and 2000, for example. Yet the games also reminded many fans of how out of place Fischer was in 1992. He was still playing the openings of a previous generation. He was, moreover, the only strong player in the world who didn't trust computers and wasn't surrounded by seconds and supplicants.

Fischer won the match with 10 wins, 5 losses, and 15 draws.[451] Kasparov stated, "Bobby is playing OK, nothing more. Maybe his strength is 2600 or 2650. It wouldn't be close between us".[452] Yasser Seirawan believed that the match proved that Fischer's playing strength was "somewhere in the top ten in the world".[453]

Fischer and Spassky gave ten press conferences during the match.[454] Seirawan attended the match and met with Fischer on several occasions; the two analyzed some match games and had personal discourse. Seirawan later wrote: "After September 23 [1992], I threw most of what I'd ever read about Bobby out of my head. Sheer garbage. Bobby is the most misunderstood, misquoted celebrity walking the face of the earth".[455] He further wrote that Fischer was not camera shy, smiled and laughed easily, was "a fine wit" and "wholly enjoyable conversationalist".[456]

The U.S. Department of the Treasury warned Fischer before the start of the match that his participation was illegal, that it would violate President George H. W. Bush's Executive Order 12810 imposing United Nations Security Council Resolution 757 sanctions against engaging in economic activities in Yugoslavia.[457] In response, during the first scheduled press conference on September 1, in front of the international press, Fischer spat on the U.S. order, saying "this is my reply".[458] His violation of the order led U.S. Federal officials to initiate a warrant for his arrest upon completion of the match,[459] citing, in pertinent part, "Title 50 USC §§1701, 1702, and 1705 and Executive Order 12810".[460][461][462]

Prior to the rematch against Spassky, Fischer had won a training match against Svetozar Gligorić in Sveti Stefan with six wins, one loss and three draws.[463]

Excl Joke Excl
Don't you know The Man owns wikipedia, REVs? He uses it to spread his lies Laugh out load
Tongue

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16-05-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm thinking about moving to Costa Rica when I retire. Many Americans have done this before me. Doubt I'll encounter any problems. ... I mean, once the house arrest and 10 mile radius ankle bracelet is up.

Costa Rica is beautiful. However, you will have challenges as an American. Obama passed FATCA, which threatens foreign countries with the US confiscating their money if they don't compel their banks to track and report back to the IRS all the activity of Americans. So most foreign banks don't want the hassle and have a an on American clients. In many expat forums Americans complain that they'll go to every bank in their city and can't find one that will accept them as a customer. And, you will have to file US taxes even if you never return to the US. But, expat returns are a lot more complicated and cost a fortune to file.

However, IMO, it's worth it to experience new cultures, learn new languages and ways of life.
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16-05-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  We have jurisdictions already. If you want to discuss what laws should be at what jurisdictional level, than ask that question.

OK, I will. We have lots of jurisdictions where people can move out if they find the rules burdensome (ie city, county, state, etc.). And we have only one jurisdiction which covers every place where an American is legally allowed to live and work, thus making escape impossible for some, and quite difficult at best.

So, what laws do you think should be passed at the jurisdiction from which escape is not possible, vs. any of the other jurisdictions where people can live there by choice? And, for those laws, why is it important to have a federal jurisdiction, given that the US states are already bigger than most countries and already have sufficient economy of scale?
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16-05-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Where blacks and women didn't have the right to vote. Good luck with that.

Agreed, but when the only alternative others will accept is mob rule, I'll take what I can get.
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16-05-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Just this once I will directly reply. Your timing is wrong he violated a US Order (he was informed of the consequences before hand) and then fled but never expatriated until he was held by the Japanese for using a suspended passport.

Look up "expatriate" in the dictionary: "to withdraw (oneself) from residence in one's native country." Fischer gave up residence in his native country BEFORE he played chess in Yugoslavia, long before he was arrested in Japan.

Now this strawman shows total desperation: "pretending the reason he was held was because he left the US is disingenuous at best and know you just plain lying because reality is inconvenient."

Total, 100% fabricated. Copy and paste where I ever said that? If my point was invalid, why fabricate such a blatant strawman?

What I ACTUALLY said, which is accurate, is "Bobby Fischer was NOT indicted and extradited for crimes committed within the US, but rather for (a) going to Yugoslavia, and (b) not sending the winnings back. This isn't disputed. I dare you to copy/paste one actual citation that says the indictment and extradition was over something he did BEFORE he expatriated." Instead of disputing my factual claim you (a) fabricated your own meaning of the word 'expatriate' to make my claim invalid, and then (b) fabricated a ridiculous strawman argument, attributed it to me, and then attacked it.

This is a textbook example.
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16-05-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 06:00 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 05:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Just this once I will directly reply. Your timing is wrong he violated a US Order (he was informed of the consequences before hand) and then fled but never expatriated until he was held by the Japanese for using a suspended passport.

Look up "expatriate" in the dictionary: "to withdraw (oneself) from residence in one's native country." Fischer gave up residence in his native country BEFORE he played chess in Yugoslavia, long before he was arrested in Japan.

Now this strawman shows total desperation: "pretending the reason he was held was because he left the US is disingenuous at best and know you just plain lying because reality is inconvenient."

Total, 100% fabricated. Copy and paste where I ever said that? If my point was invalid, why fabricate such a blatant strawman?

What I ACTUALLY said, which is accurate, is "Bobby Fischer was NOT indicted and extradited for crimes committed within the US, but rather for (a) going to Yugoslavia, and (b) not sending the winnings back. This isn't disputed. I dare you to copy/paste one actual citation that says the indictment and extradition was over something he did BEFORE he expatriated." Instead of disputing my factual claim you (a) fabricated your own meaning of the word 'expatriate' to make my claim invalid, and then (b) fabricated a ridiculous strawman argument, attributed it to me, and then attacked it.

This is a textbook example.

This is why I never respond to you. Waste of fucking time. I'll let others be the judge of who is more honest and correct about history me or the guy that argued the North started the civil war.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-05-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 06:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is why I never respond to you. Waste of fucking time. I'll let others be the judge of who is more honest and correct about history me or the guy that argued the North started the civil war.

Look, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was wrong to say the North started it. Cjlr corrected me that it was more complicated than that. Unlike you, when I misspoke, I backed off, whereas you doubled down on that ridiculous claim about Fischer.

However that wasn't my point anyway. My point is that, imo, it's wrong that history books say the civil war was necessary to free the slaves when it's well documented that the north could have just bought the slaves freedom for less than the cost of the war, without any casualties or destruction. That core point IS very valid, which is why you keep pouncing on other subjective details, like "who started it" which isn't even relevant to the point I was making.

As far as your Bobby Fischer laim and my response, for once we agree. Yes, those posts really do speak for themselves and are a great example of our disagreements.
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16-05-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 05:50 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 05:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  We have jurisdictions already. If you want to discuss what laws should be at what jurisdictional level, than ask that question.

OK, I will. We have lots of jurisdictions where people can move out if they find the rules burdensome (ie city, county, state, etc.). And we have only one jurisdiction which covers every place where an American is legally allowed to live and work, thus making escape impossible for some, and quite difficult at best.

So, what laws do you think should be passed at the jurisdiction from which escape is not possible, vs. any of the other jurisdictions where people can live there by choice? And, for those laws, why is it important to have a federal jurisdiction, given that the US states are already bigger than most countries and already have sufficient economy of scale?

We have already discussed federal jurisdiction and you have agreed there are laws and regulations that are necessary and desirable at that level, e.g. relations between states, environmental laws, relations with other countries, and so on.

Also, there is a reasonable argument to be made that if national citizenship is to mean anything, citizens are entitled to expect certain rights in every part of the country. That is where there can be honest disagreement and discussion.

There are laws and regulations for the protection of people that I think need to be federal, e.g. voting rights, consumer protection, food and drug laws, and the like.

However, if you were free to leave the country with no strings attached, it doesn't really matter whether the laws are local or national, does it?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: [split] Ignorance about anarchism
(16-05-2014 06:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Look, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.

You're wrong if you think the US Government somehow prevents, restricts or otherwise obstructs you from moving to Costa Rica anytime you please.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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