[split] It's Supernatural.
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11-12-2013, 07:46 AM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(10-12-2013 06:26 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 07:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  I presented it, fuckhead, you just don't see it.

That wasn't an argument, it was an assertion; and calling me a "fuckhead" doesn't turn your assertion into arguments.

Says the person who wished cancer on others and threw the word cunt around like it was a wet towel.

Yeah, your posts totally hold weight here. Rolleyes

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11-12-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 03:23 AM)Chippy Wrote:  [quote='Cephalotus' pid='440328' dateline='1386747770']


[quote]
--When discussing the "legitimacy" of various forms of fiction, the fact that all given examples ARE INDEED FICTION is actually QUITE pertinent to the conversation.

That doesn't make any sense. I am unable to extract any meaning from it.

[quote]


ROFL
Oh my goodness.

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11-12-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 07:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 09:04 PM)Chippy Wrote:  I am the only person in this thread that has presented any arguments. Pleading and emoting and posting animated gifs doesn't amount to anything. Review what you have posted:
--the irrelevant point that WS is no longer a Wiccan
--the irrelevant point that all religions are made up


Wicca does demand of its adherents the capacity for doublethink. No one in this thread has refuted this claim nor have they been able to cite another religion which requires doublethink.

Wicca is generally categorised as a postmodern religion by sociologists of religion. If it is a postmodern religion then that too distinguishes it from most other religions. That also communicates something about its adherents.

What we are pointing out is that your argument is a trivial, hair-splitting one, you take yourself far too seriously, and we are mocking it and you.

I don't think Chippy's argument is trivial but I do think the bickering about something which he says is an irrelevant point is trivial.

The bickering by all has made this portion of the thread completely trivial. This is why it has been split and moved to the pit.
***

Trivialities aside for just a moment...

Quote:Doublethink is the ability to hold two opposite views as being true without acknowledging that you are doing so, to use either of those views to suit your purpose, then forget that you ever did so. It's purpose it to provide a philosophical basis, and a method of defending through argument, a totalitarian system of government that might otherwise be objectionable. It is used to alter the past, and reject rationality to protect the infallibility of the ruling party.

In the US... people seem to currently just fucking love Reagan while, I and the people I hung out with in the 80s, hated that fucker's guts. In fact, I saw and still see the Reagan administration as the great push to conform, to homogenize the masses - not just politically but socially as well as philosophically. Yes, it began much earlier than the 80s but the loose ends were becoming tied together at that point in time. I am not only astonished but completely sickened that history has been rewritten and so gleefully accepted. Religious extremism in the US has this acceptance to thank for it's rise and assertion into the mainstream.

I for one, find the notion of a pervasion of what Chippy referred to as doublethink, especially in the latter part of the 20th century, to be an issue of great import in the shadow of the rise of the internet and it's evolving peculiarities.
***

Frankly, I do not know of a religion that does not require doublethink; the very distortion of logic and circular reasoning requires a particular mental gymnastics all of which are used to coerce masses into a complacent acceptance. And then... one is sent forth to "spread the word"... which to me, comes down to rewriting history to meet a theological norm.

Fuck them all, I say.
A majority of the Christian world seems to think the world is Christian and whimper like idiots when they find out christians are being slaughtered in some part of the world just for being Christian. Boo fucking hoo. A great many followers of Islam feel the world is subject to the teachings of Allah and cry foul when "ethnic cleansing" ensues in certain countries, yet they still don't seem to have a problem wiping out anyone considered an infidel. Again, whaaah.

And those are just the two biggies... but really... complacency is the crux. Where complacency lies is the acceptance of the fringe ... the "spiritual" shit. I observe this to be perhaps the most seductive because it essentially tells one, "Hey, do what you feel or follow your own path but still while you're doing that, suck my dick and don't worry about it... cause, we're not those guys... oh, AND we've been around for 1000s of years. Well, not really but still, we're cool and we don't kill people so, ya gotta love that! *smiley face*"

People inside the bubble accept. That is the aim of religion or anything that would enact control over a mass of people or even a single mind.

This is not a trivial thing.

But it has been made very small in comparison to the bickering going on in this thread.
***

Bickering accomplishes little and is unworthy of people with good points to make.

Many people on this forum have a PAST. Maybe they are still looking for ways to escape it. Insulting one for a past indiscretion is futile and can only result in a bloody mess around here... for there are many, many past indiscretions.
This is a thing that Chippy may not quite have the grasp of and his insults seem out of proportion to many.
But... it's not just Chippy... it takes more than one to bicker.

Personally, I've never tried to figure someone out through patent insults and bickering and I'm glad I don't because I see how that turns out. I lose.

Oh well. I guess I don't know enough to discuss very much. Drinking Beverage

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11-12-2013, 08:13 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 01:03 PM)kim Wrote:  This is a thing that Chippy may not quite have the grasp of and his insults seem out of proportion to many.
But... it's not just Chippy... it takes more than one to bicker.

Oh, for crying out loud, the sumbitch strawmans the shit out of what people say and goes on long idiotic and vitriolic tirades railing against the STRAWMAN he sets up, ignoring completely what the other actually said. And then he cries and whines when he gets called on it. He can't debate his way out of a fucking paper bag. Fuck him.

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11-12-2013, 08:27 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 01:03 PM)kim Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 07:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  What we are pointing out is that your argument is a trivial, hair-splitting one, you take yourself far too seriously, and we are mocking it and you.

I don't think Chippy's argument is trivial but I do think the bickering about something which he says is an irrelevant point is trivial.

The bickering by all has made this portion of the thread completely trivial. This is why it has been split and moved to the pit.
***

Trivialities aside for just a moment...

Quote:Doublethink is the ability to hold two opposite views as being true without acknowledging that you are doing so, to use either of those views to suit your purpose, then forget that you ever did so. It's purpose it to provide a philosophical basis, and a method of defending through argument, a totalitarian system of government that might otherwise be objectionable. It is used to alter the past, and reject rationality to protect the infallibility of the ruling party.

In the US... people seem to currently just fucking love Reagan while, I and the people I hung out with in the 80s, hated that fucker's guts. In fact, I saw and still see the Reagan administration as the great push to conform, to homogenize the masses - not just politically but socially as well as philosophically. Yes, it began much earlier than the 80s but the loose ends were becoming tied together at that point in time. I am not only astonished but completely sickened that history has been rewritten and so gleefully accepted. Religious extremism in the US has this acceptance to thank for it's rise and assertion into the mainstream.

I for one, find the notion of a pervasion of what Chippy referred to as doublethink, especially in the latter part of the 20th century, to be an issue of great import in the shadow of the rise of the internet and it's evolving peculiarities.
***

Frankly, I do not know of a religion that does not require doublethink; the very distortion of logic and circular reasoning requires a particular mental gymnastics all of which are used to coerce masses into a complacent acceptance. And then... one is sent forth to "spread the word"... which to me, comes down to rewriting history to meet a theological norm.

Fuck them all, I say.
A majority of the Christian world seems to think the world is Christian and whimper like idiots when they find out christians are being slaughtered in some part of the world just for being Christian. Boo fucking hoo. A great many followers of Islam feel the world is subject to the teachings of Allah and cry foul when "ethnic cleansing" ensues in certain countries, yet they still don't seem to have a problem wiping out anyone considered an infidel. Again, whaaah.

And those are just the two biggies... but really... complacency is the crux. Where complacency lies is the acceptance of the fringe ... the "spiritual" shit. I observe this to be perhaps the most seductive because it essentially tells one, "Hey, do what you feel or follow your own path but still while you're doing that, suck my dick and don't worry about it... cause, we're not those guys... oh, AND we've been around for 1000s of years. Well, not really but still, we're cool and we don't kill people so, ya gotta love that! *smiley face*"

People inside the bubble accept. That is the aim of religion or anything that would enact control over a mass of people or even a single mind.

This is not a trivial thing.

But it has been made very small in comparison to the bickering going on in this thread.
***

Bickering accomplishes little and is unworthy of people with good points to make.

Many people on this forum have a PAST. Maybe they are still looking for ways to escape it. Insulting one for a past indiscretion is futile and can only result in a bloody mess around here... for there are many, many past indiscretions.
This is a thing that Chippy may not quite have the grasp of and his insults seem out of proportion to many.
But... it's not just Chippy... it takes more than one to bicker.

Personally, I've never tried to figure someone out through patent insults and bickering and I'm glad I don't because I see how that turns out. I lose.

Oh well. I guess I don't know enough to discuss very much. Drinking Beverage

Sure, Kim. If you want to minimize the criticism of an unprovoked and irrational attack on someone for what she used to believe by calling it bickering, go right ahead.

By all means, let's make sure we don't allow justified criticism of a psychotic blowhard make him feel unwelcome in any way, that would just be too unkind. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-12-2013, 08:45 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 01:03 PM)kim Wrote:  I don't think Chippy's argument is trivial but I do think the bickering about something which he says is an irrelevant point is trivial.

Thanks for actually contributing an argument and understanding the broader implications of my position.
Quote:Frankly, I do not know of a religion that does not require doublethink; the very distortion of logic and circular reasoning requires a particular mental gymnastics all of which are used to coerce masses into a complacent acceptance. And then... one is sent forth to "spread the word"... which to me, comes down to rewriting history to meet a theological norm.

I don't agree. Vicious circularity is distinct from doublethink and it is not the same as groupthink.

Doublethink in relation to foundations and authenticity is--AFAIK--found only in neo-paganism. This is a feature of post-modernism in which it is claimed that there is no such thing as Truth, that there is no such thing as a "privileged narrative" and that all accounts of reality are just narratives. Thus there is no distinction between truth and falsehood, everyone creates their own "truth". In this irrationalist scheme it doesn't matter that Gardner made it all up--he made it all up AND it is also true.

No other religion--even the cults that I know of--can survive the revelation that their doctrine was a human invention. They all derive their authority from the conceit that their doctrine has non-human origins. Even the CoS is premised on the idea that Hubbard managed to arrive at the truth about humans and Earth by discovering and resolving the "R6 Implant" in his mind placed there by Xenu. As nutty as Scientology is it still conforms to the general pattern that all religions conform to in relation to the origin of their doctrine.

Believing a religious doctrine that is patently invented was new territory, it was an unchartered region of human gullibility in the mid-20th-Century. Also Orwell conceived of doublethink as something that totalitarian regimes do to their subjects, a mode of thinking that neuters reason that is forced upon them. Doublethink is one of the ways that the totalitarian regime breaks the back of reason, renders it impotent. If the idea of someone wilfully disarming their capacity to reason doesn't disturb you then it is indicative of just how far the post-modern rot has seeped into Western civilisation. I make no apologies for aggressively re-affirming Enlightenment values and for putting someone's post-modernist folly under a spotlight.

Quote:Fuck them all, I say.

So do I but I'm not going to minimise or blur out someone's idiocy just to be "nice" on an online forum. If someone is going to parade their special idiocy with a provocative username, avatar and apologetic potted bio then they are just asking for it as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
And those are just the two biggies... but really... complacency is the crux. Where complacency lies is the acceptance of the fringe ... the "spiritual" shit. I observe this to be perhaps the most seductive because it essentially tells one, "Hey, do what you feel or follow your own path but still while you're doing that, suck my dick and don't worry about it... cause, we're not those guys... oh, AND we've been around for 1000s of years. Well, not really but still, we're cool and we don't kill people so, ya gotta love that! *smiley face*"

My sentiments precisely. And "the spiritual" is a huge multi-million dollar industry throughout the Anglophone world. An industry of bullshit. The idea that Wicca and neo-paganism is harmless was repeated in this very thread. No institutionalised/organised superstition is completely without harm and one that demands doublethink is most definitely not benign.

Quote:This is not a trivial thing.
But it has been made very small in comparison to the bickering going on in this thread.

I agree and it was not my intention to bicker when I opened the topic.

Quote:Many people on this forum have a PAST. Maybe they are still looking for ways to escape it. Insulting one for a past indiscretion is futile and can only result in a bloody mess around here... for there are many, many past indiscretions.
This is a thing that Chippy may not quite have the grasp of and his insults seem out of proportion to many.
But... it's not just Chippy... it takes more than one to bicker.

You've mentioned this matter to me on another occasion. If an ex-CoS member came here and didn't use what they had learnt about the CoS to warn others, to educate others, to critique the CoS, to even modestly try and further the cause of skepticism but instead sought to minimise their error and assumed some CoS-related online persona my response would have been the same.

The irritant of a person like WS is the absence of a clear and unambiguous renouncement of a past folly or even a constructive exploitation of it. Look at her posts to date. They are just childish banalities. Where is the post that provides a sober analysis of Wicca, that explains why it is bullshit that could possibly serve as a warning for young people heading in that direction? Where is the post that reflects this claimed maturity of outlook and the mid-life retirement of childish ideas? I've put her in my ignore list because I very much doubt I will ever see that kind of post. I don't come to an atheist/skeptic forum to watch animated gifs.

My position on the matter is considered and that no one has countered any of my stated positions is demonstrative of that.
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11-12-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 08:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  Sure, Kim. If you want to minimize the criticism of an unprovoked and irrational attack on someone for what she used to believe by calling it bickering, go right ahead.

You've yet to address any of the substantive points I have made.

The "used to believe" is moot and in any event it is irrelevant to my contentions.

Quote:By all means, let's make sure we don't allow justified criticism of a psychotic blowhard make him feel unwelcome in any way, that would just be too unkind. Dodgy

Justified criticism would be a rebuttal of the substantive points I have made. Claiming that that I shouldn't even be making my criticisms isn't justifiable on an atheist/skeptic forum.
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11-12-2013, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2013 08:58 PM by Cephalotus.)
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
I will have to thank TM for rescuing this quote from the wall, lol.

(11-12-2013 01:03 PM)kim Wrote:  This is a thing that Chippy may not quite have the grasp of and his insults seem out of proportion to many.
But... it's not just Chippy... it takes more than one to bicker.

Everyone was having a nice conversation in the other thread about things that appear to be magical or unexplainable, and we reminisced about the fact that some of us used to be Wiccan and/or neopagan. Chippy decided to come along and assert that anybody who used to be Wiccan should be considered "an ignoramus" forevermore, *even if* they later realized the absurdity and stepped away from the religion altogether. That's strike one for his obvious trolling.

Strike two was his reasoning that only the religions who have *the most delusional founders* should be respected. On an atheist forum (On. An. Atheist. Forum.) he is asserting that prophets/founders/etc. who claim eternal & unyielding certainties are more deserving of consideration than those who say "Hey, guys, we might want to take a step back and reconsider this shit...."

Strike three (my personal favorite!) was the manner in which he treated legitimate arguments and rebuttals. His two favorite tactics were 1. Completely ignoring the ones he couldn't explain away, and 2. Asserting they were inconsequential to the discussion without providing reasons why they were inconsequential to the discussion.

Let's not forget the time he willingly admitted to a personal vendetta against Wicca, pretended he didn't understand us when it suited him to ignore the argument on the table, purposefully started side arguments so he could strawman them as the primary discussion, and stooped so low as to actually *defend* Scientology and Mormonism just to make Wicca look worse by comparison.

It's not so much a matter of bickering as it was an attempt to point out how flat-out, completely, and totally *wrong* these ideas are on merit. That's the way I saw it anyhow. I can't speak for anyone else. I can appreciate someone trying to play peace keeper, but there is absolutely no way to reason with an axe grinder. His only possible goal is continuing this was to make others on the forum feel guilty about past life decisions, which I can guarantee is far (far) beyond his authority or expertise.

EDIT: For everyone's information, I have added Chippy to my ignore list so I have no idea if he is still trying to communicate or not. I'm just putting my side out there.

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11-12-2013, 09:01 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 08:45 PM)Chippy Wrote:  The irritant of a person like WS is the absence of a clear and unambiguous renouncement of a past folly or even a constructive exploitation of it. Look at her posts to date.

Her clear and unambiguous statement that she no longer believes in Wicca has been pointed out to you multiple times.

You are either a liar or just stupid.

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11-12-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: [split] It's Supernatural.
(11-12-2013 09:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 08:45 PM)Chippy Wrote:  The irritant of a person like WS is the absence of a clear and unambiguous renouncement of a past folly or even a constructive exploitation of it. Look at her posts to date.

Her clear and unambiguous statement that she no longer believes in Wicca has been pointed out to you multiple times.

You are either a liar or just stupid.

Or it could be that I think in this case actions speak much louder than a wishy-washy abnegation.

So where is the post-mortem report of Wicca? The forum is full of accounts from ex-Christians about the loss of their faith. Even the shortest of accounts refer to some aspect(s) of Christianity that eventually sunk their faith. It is incongruous that someone that claims to have renounced a religion has absolutely no criticism to make of that religion.

"I no longer believe in Wicca because........" ?
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