[split] Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
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24-08-2014, 05:28 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2014 07:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
[split] Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 04:33 AM)Baruch Wrote:  It is EXTREMELY dangerous to allow "Moderate Islam" to grow and have a strong political force even if democratic because with it there is automatic endorsement/legitimacy for the fundamentalists such as the salafi's, ISIS, AL-Queda's, Hamas, Islamic Jihads,BukuHarams etc.You cannot have "Just moderates" in Islam because on the "conservative right" of the political landscape the more moderates you have the more fundamentalists are justified - and the fundamentalists can easily convert moderates who will be told their Islam is diluted & heretical "mixed" with western values. Read Temptations of Power: Islamists & Illiberal Democracy in a New Middle East Written by: Shadi Hamid for more insights.

I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

The Palestinians are a prime example of what prolonged exclusion gets you.

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24-08-2014, 08:10 AM
RE: Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

Yes, I fail too see why that sentiment does not apply equally to all other religions. There is no innate difference between Islam and other faiths in that respect so far as I can tell. They all have their extremist factions.

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24-08-2014, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2014 09:49 AM by Baruch.)
RE: Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 04:33 AM)Baruch Wrote:  It is EXTREMELY dangerous to allow "Moderate Islam" to grow and have a strong political force even if democratic because with it there is automatic endorsement/legitimacy for the fundamentalists such as the salafi's, ISIS, AL-Queda's, Hamas, Islamic Jihads,BukuHarams etc.You cannot have "Just moderates" in Islam because on the "conservative right" of the political landscape the more moderates you have the more fundamentalists are justified - and the fundamentalists can easily convert moderates who will be told their Islam is diluted & heretical "mixed" with western values. Read Temptations of Power: Islamists & Illiberal Democracy in a New Middle East Written by: Shadi Hamid for more insights.

I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

The Palestinians are a prime example of what prolonged exclusion gets you.

Mainly aimed @ Evolution Kills and off topic - sorry this became long as I kept writing.......:

Evolution Kills - I utterly disagree after reading the book I mentioned above.
for Islam:
Case in point being how Egypt & Jordan were being increasingly inclusive until Islamism was penetrating within the political system & setting up Sharia law even within a non religious constitution. Islamist had already taken over grass roots activities and becoming the social norm, especially within poorer less educated communities who are easier to radicalize.
However your plan of inclusiveness would allow Islamist education because you are not separating religious powers from state powers i.e you are being inclusive.

In Jordan during the late 80's there was a risk of revolution and King Hussain was "reforming" and playing with democracy - i.e an earlier version of the Arab Spring. However In the early 1990's King Hussain cracked down, EXCLUDED and shut down the muslim brotherhood and other Islamist parties - mostly as a response to keeping power but also due to trying to keep the peace treaty with Israel (Hated by the Islamist parties) and consequently the vast US aid that Jordan now receives.

In Egypt the Muslim brotherhood has a much longer history - back to the 1920's and effectively was allowed to build a massive grass roots support during various time periods - even when banned politically. Then by re-branding itself as moderate & allying itself with other democratic parties helped launch the revolution in Egypt. However one in power the Muslim brotherhood had come into massive pressure by the right wing conservative Salafi parties claiming it had deviated from fundamental Islamist values and has too much influence from western values. Not too long after this we see the "illiberal democracy" - when Islamism starts destroying churches and marginalizing any secular parties or education. Eventually you end up with a totalitarian Islamist regime.
Turkey is now going down this route - especially after Erdogan won the elections and has consolidated more state powers, totally transformed the education system to a more Islamist agenda and side lining the secular reforms carried out by Ataturk.


Quote:fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary

For Christians & Jews: I agree with you - but Judaism & Christianity have a limited all encompassing political system unlike Islam which whilst it has private individual practice, part of Shariah must include an overall political leadership of a state - basically the goal of Islam is to re-create the Caliphates.

It is much easier to go to scriptures and claim Christendom in the form of the Catholic Church was deviating from Jesus message considering if anything Jesus was a rebel against political states and doesn't have a well established political system in the New testament (unlike Islam) Yes there are Christian fundamentalists - but its easier to separate state powers from Private practice because there is no "Christian law codes" that must be part of a theocracy.

As for Judaism - one very important factor is that Judaism is not evangelical to outsiders - it actually discourages conversion and does not require spreading Judaism throughout the world as its goal unlike both Islam & Christianity - basically Jews believe that non-Jews can live as "righteous gentiles & get heaven" as long as they keep the so called "seven Noahide laws" - and if you have not heard of this it means they are doing a bad job at spreading this message.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

As for "orthodox" Judaism as a political system - this collapsed 2000 years ago with the destruction of the Sanhedrin and religious Jews cannot set up another one based on their own religious laws. In Israel the constitution is secular and religion is marginalized with limited state funding - basically a separation of religion & State.
Yes there are religious courts and places of learning but political power is limited due to a secular constitution which protects non religious groups - this is obvious because it you want to eat somewhere Kosher virtually all of Tel-Aviv is not acceptable to the orthodox ! (This is mainly Jewish Tel-Aviv, I'm not talking about mainly Israeli-Arab Jaffa were non religious Jews will eat Halal food)

As for religious fundamentalists who are in government, then I would agree with you that Israel has the same problems as the US does with fundamentalist Republican Christians on the right of the political spectrum therefore issues such as gay marriage or assisted suicide are delayed or vetoed etc. The far right also makes peace with Palestinians more difficult due to fundamentalists unlike the politically left.
However withing the general population there are no powers to arrest blasphemers, stop secular education (secular education is encouraged !) or not allow freedom for Gays or lesbians (Israel has the largest Gay parades in the middle East as an example)

As an example one reason I left orthodox Judaism was within Israel the universities are blatantly secular (& state school system)- teaching mainstream sciences, evolution and non-orthodox history of the bible. Eg Israel Finklestein is Professor of Archaeology in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations, Tel Aviv University - I cannot imagine an equivalent in any university in an Arab country who's main role is showing the natural historicity of religion & denying revelation - his books are available in most book shops in Israel unless you go to a specific orthodox bookstore. No Banning, Fatwah's or death threats for publishing secular material.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-08-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 09:28 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

The Palestinians are a prime example of what prolonged exclusion gets you.

Mainly aimed @ Evolution Kills and off topic - sorry this became long as I kept writing.......:

Evolution Kills - I utterly disagree after reading the book I mentioned above.
for Islam:
Case in point being how Egypt & Jordan were being increasingly inclusive until Islamism was penetrating within the political system & setting up Sharia law even within a non religious constitution. Islamist had already taken over grass roots activities and becoming the social norm, especially within poorer less educated communities who are easier to radicalize.
However your plan of inclusiveness would allow Islamist education because you are not separating religious powers from state powers i.e you are being inclusive.

In Jordan during the late 80's there was a risk of revolution and King Hussain was "reforming" and playing with democracy - i.e an earlier version of the Arab Spring. However In the early 1990's King Hussain cracked down, EXCLUDED and shut down the muslim brotherhood and other Islamist parties - mostly as a response to keeping power but also due to trying to keep the peace treaty with Israel (Hated by the Islamist parties) and consequently the vast US aid that Jordan now receives.

In Egypt the Muslim brotherhood has a much longer history - back to the 1920's and effectively was allowed to build a massive grass roots support during various time periods - even when banned politically. Then by re-branding itself as moderate & allying itself with other democratic parties helped launch the revolution in Egypt. However one in power the Muslim brotherhood had come into massive pressure by the right wing conservative Salafi parties claiming it had deviated from fundamental Islamist values and has too much influence from western values. Not too long after this we see the "illiberal democracy" - when Islamism starts destroying churches and marginalizing any secular parties or education. Eventually you end up with a totalitarian Islamist regime.
Turkey is now going down this route - especially after Erdogan won the elections and has consolidated more state powers, totally transformed the education system to a more Islamist agenda and side lining the secular reforms carried out by Ataturk.


Quote:fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary

For Christians & Jews: I agree with you - but Judaism & Christianity have a limited all encompassing political system unlike Islam which whilst it has private individual practice, part of Shariah must include an overall political leadership of a state - basically the goal of Islam is to re-create the Caliphates.

It is much easier to go to scriptures and claim Christendom in the form of the Catholic Church was deviating from Jesus message considering if anything Jesus was a rebel against political states and doesn't have a well established political system in the New testament (unlike Islam) Yes there are Christian fundamentalists - but its easier to separate state powers from Private practice because there is no "Christian law codes" that must be part of a theocracy.

As for Judaism - one very important factor is that Judaism is not evangelical to outsiders - it actually discourages conversion and does not require spreading Judaism throughout the world as its goal unlike both Islam & Christianity - basically Jews believe that non-Jews can live as "righteous gentiles & get heaven" as long as they keep the so called "seven Noahide laws" - and if you have not heard of this it means they are doing a bad job at spreading this message.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

As for "orthodox" Judaism as a political system - this collapsed 2000 years ago with the destruction of the Sanhedrin and religious Jews cannot set up another one based on their own religious laws. In Israel the constitution is secular and religion is marginalized with limited state funding - basically a separation of religion & State.
Yes there are religious courts and places of learning but political power is limited due to a secular constitution which protects non religious groups - this is obvious because it you want to eat somewhere Kosher virtually all of Tel-Aviv is not acceptable to the orthodox ! (This is mainly Jewish Tel-Aviv, I'm not talking about mainly Israeli-Arab Jaffa were non religious Jews will eat Halal food)

As for religious fundamentalists who are in government, then I would agree with you that Israel has the same problems as the US does with fundamentalist Republican Christians on the right of the political spectrum therefore issues such as gay marriage or assisted suicide are delayed or vetoed etc. The far right also makes peace with Palestinians more difficult due to fundamentalists unlike the politically left.
However withing the general population there are no powers to arrest blasphemers, stop secular education (secular education is encouraged !) or not allow freedom for Gays or lesbians (Israel has the largest Gay parades in the middle East as an example)

As an example one reason I left orthodox Judaism was within Israel the universities are blatantly secular (& state school system)- teaching mainstream sciences, evolution and non-orthodox history of the bible. Eg Israel Finklestein is Professor of Archaeology in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations, Tel Aviv University - I cannot imagine an equivalent in any university in an Arab country who's main role is showing the natural historicity of religion & denying revelation - his books are available in most book shops in Israel unless you go to a specific orthodox bookstore. No Banning, Fatwah's or death threats for publishing secular material.

While I'd like to engage with this further, I'd appreciate it if a MOD could give us a split here so we're not disrupting the rest of this thread with off-topic debate. Thumbsup

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24-08-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 08:10 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

Yes, I fail too see why that sentiment does not apply equally to all other religions. There is no innate difference between Islam and other faiths in that respect so far as I can tell. They all have their extremist factions.

Only partially agree with you cjlr based on latest response to evolutionkills.

Christianity lacks a well established political theocracy - even at the height of the Catholic Churches power it is possible to show that it is deviating from the teachings of Jesus who didn't directly set up a political theocratic system and religious constitution unlike Islam and the Caliphates which followed Mohammed. On the contrary Jesus was somewhat of a rebel to state authority be it the Roman occupiers of Israel or the Sanhedrin/Pharisee's/Sadducee leadership in Israel.
However Christianity is evangelical and considers itself the only way to God - so there is some similarity to Islam.

With Judaism there IS a political theology but this collapsed when the Sanhedrin was destroyed and more importantly Judaism is not evangelical to outsiders of the faith - in fact within Jewish law it is discouraged to convert others - the exact opposite of Christianity & Islam. Even though Jews do believe they have the "true path" they also believe that non-Jews have their own path to an afterlife if they follow the seven Noahide laws (VERY different to Christianity/Islam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

This means that a Jew has no right according to Jewish orthodox law to interfere & preach to someone such as an Aristotelian or Platonist rationalist to make them convert to Judaism. I am being somewhat specific because Aristotelian or Platonistic rationalism would fit into the 7 Noahide laws according to orthodox Judaism - i.e this is a suitable path & those practicing a rational philosophy should NOT convert unless they really want to.
(Yes things do get tricky for some Hindu's who may be accused of idolatry - but there are interpretations of Hinduism that the ultimate truth is Brahaman which can be described in non idolatrous terminology.)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-08-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
Baruch - I do not think it is helpful to consider things in such isolation.

The presence of radical religious parties in several middle-eastern states cannot be separated from the long history of oppressive secular states. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example, has been a lot of things in its 90 year history, but it has never been accepted by the authorities - either the colonial powers, or the arab-nationalist dictators. Marginalisation breeds radicalism. But we could consider Tunisian Ennahda as a point of comparison.
(or, for that matter, one might consider the largely irreligious European states with Christian democrats in their electoral landscapes)

And I'd say there once was very well-established Christian theocracy - the Romans, who the early Caliphs owed a huge debt to; a unified political state no more existed in Jesus's day than it did in Mohammad's, and Islam as a political ideology only came about in the Umayyad era.

Christianity has always been more fractious, but it's not like anybody speaking for "all Islam" has ever been particularly representative, either...

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24-08-2014, 11:59 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2014 12:03 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: [split] Jeffrey Lang - From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam
(24-08-2014 09:28 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have to disagree with you here. We have crazy fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary. If you disenfranchised the liberals and moderates within Islam, you do nothing but empower the radicals. If you take away their ability to interact with the system, eventually they will want to destroy it. The best way to cut the legs out from under the radicals is with education and inclusiveness, not exclusion.

The Palestinians are a prime example of what prolonged exclusion gets you.

Mainly aimed @ Evolution Kills and off topic - sorry this became long as I kept writing.......:

Evolution Kills - I utterly disagree after reading the book I mentioned above.
for Islam:
Case in point being how Egypt & Jordan were being increasingly inclusive until Islamism was penetrating within the political system & setting up Sharia law even within a non religious constitution. Islamist had already taken over grass roots activities and becoming the social norm, especially within poorer less educated communities who are easier to radicalize.
However your plan of inclusiveness would allow Islamist education because you are not separating religious powers from state powers i.e you are being inclusive.

There is a difference between being inclusive, and being subservient. I am more than well aware of what can happen when religious fundamentalism gets into schools, we have Christians trying to get away with it here and now. Fortunately we have, at least on paper, one of the most secular governing documents ever created; the Constitution. It forces the dichotomy of equal representation of all religions, or none of them. I'd love to see some Buddhists and Muslims attempting to join forces with the Evangelicals to get their myths taught in school as fact, because I'm pretty sure that would scare the fundamentalist Christians shitless.

Once the choice is explicit between allowing Christianity at the cost of allowing Islam, or being secular; I think most will opt for secularism. When I advocate for inclusion, it is within the political process; not allowing them (or anyone else) free reign to teach their religious myths as facts in public schools. Inclusiveness doesn't mean we bastardize our secular education system.


(24-08-2014 09:28 AM)Baruch Wrote:  In Jordan during the late 80's there was a risk of revolution and King Hussain was "reforming" and playing with democracy - i.e an earlier version of the Arab Spring. However In the early 1990's King Hussain cracked down, EXCLUDED and shut down the muslim brotherhood and other Islamist parties - mostly as a response to keeping power but also due to trying to keep the peace treaty with Israel (Hated by the Islamist parties) and consequently the vast US aid that Jordan now receives.

In Egypt the Muslim brotherhood has a much longer history - back to the 1920's and effectively was allowed to build a massive grass roots support during various time periods - even when banned politically. Then by re-branding itself as moderate & allying itself with other democratic parties helped launch the revolution in Egypt. However one in power the Muslim brotherhood had come into massive pressure by the right wing conservative Salafi parties claiming it had deviated from fundamental Islamist values and has too much influence from western values. Not too long after this we see the "illiberal democracy" - when Islamism starts destroying churches and marginalizing any secular parties or education. Eventually you end up with a totalitarian Islamist regime.
Turkey is now going down this route - especially after Erdogan won the elections and has consolidated more state powers, totally transformed the education system to a more Islamist agenda and side lining the secular reforms carried out by Ataturk.


Once again let them advocate, let them speak, let them petition, let them protest, let them vote; allow them all of the political rights and privileges afforded to all other citizens of any other western democracy if they are a citizen of those countries. Don't kowtow to them, don't allow them to subvert secular laws; but don't cut them entirely out of the political process either. They need to feel they have a stake in the political process, and they won't have that vested interest in it if their voices are silenced. Let them compete in the war of ideas, and let them lose.



(24-08-2014 09:28 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 05:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  fundamentalist Christians and Jews involved in politics already, disallowing the Muslims is hypocritical and arbitrary
For Christians & Jews: I agree with you - but Judaism & Christianity have a limited all encompassing political system unlike Islam which whilst it has private individual practice, part of Shariah must include an overall political leadership of a state - basically the goal of Islam is to re-create the Caliphates.

It is much easier to go to scriptures and claim Christendom in the form of the Catholic Church was deviating from Jesus message considering if anything Jesus was a rebel against political states and doesn't have a well established political system in the New testament (unlike Islam) Yes there are Christian fundamentalists - but its easier to separate state powers from Private practice because there is no "Christian law codes" that must be part of a theocracy.

As for Judaism - one very important factor is that Judaism is not evangelical to outsiders - it actually discourages conversion and does not require spreading Judaism throughout the world as its goal unlike both Islam & Christianity - basically Jews believe that non-Jews can live as "righteous gentiles & get heaven" as long as they keep the so called "seven Noahide laws" - and if you have not heard of this it means they are doing a bad job at spreading this message.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

As for "orthodox" Judaism as a political system - this collapsed 2000 years ago with the destruction of the Sanhedrin and religious Jews cannot set up another one based on their own religious laws. In Israel the constitution is secular and religion is marginalized with limited state funding - basically a separation of religion & State.
Yes there are religious courts and places of learning but political power is limited due to a secular constitution which protects non religious groups - this is obvious because it you want to eat somewhere Kosher virtually all of Tel-Aviv is not acceptable to the orthodox ! (This is mainly Jewish Tel-Aviv, I'm not talking about mainly Israeli-Arab Jaffa were non religious Jews will eat Halal food)

As for religious fundamentalists who are in government, then I would agree with you that Israel has the same problems as the US does with fundamentalist Republican Christians on the right of the political spectrum therefore issues such as gay marriage or assisted suicide are delayed or vetoed etc. The far right also makes peace with Palestinians more difficult due to fundamentalists unlike the politically left.
However withing the general population there are no powers to arrest blasphemers, stop secular education (secular education is encouraged !) or not allow freedom for Gays or lesbians (Israel has the largest Gay parades in the middle East as an example)

As an example one reason I left orthodox Judaism was within Israel the universities are blatantly secular (& state school system)- teaching mainstream sciences, evolution and non-orthodox history of the bible. Eg Israel Finklestein is Professor of Archaeology in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations, Tel Aviv University - I cannot imagine an equivalent in any university in an Arab country who's main role is showing the natural historicity of religion & denying revelation - his books are available in most book shops in Israel unless you go to a specific orthodox bookstore. No Banning, Fatwah's or death threats for publishing secular material.

Still, I fail to see how this justifies putting the Muslims in a box and separating them from everyone else. Here in the United States we have a history of ignoring problem to disastrous consequences, and making great strides once we acknowledge and address a problem in the public light. Putting black people in a box with Jim Crow laws and segregation caused more problems. Ignoring women's call for equality caused more problems. Ignoring LGBT issues only caused more problems. Taking a group of people and shunting them off into seclusion is not how you solve the problem; or at least this hasn't worked at all historically in the United States. Ignoring problems only makes them worse.

I don't agree with how the UK is trying to solve their issues, but they also live in a constitutional monarchy with a state religion and have become so secular and their church so neutered, I fear that they may be too blind to the dangers caused and allowed by their concessions to Islam. That is not a problem we'll have here in the United States, but we'll have our own hurdles to overcome. While I might not have an definitive answer for how to solve this problem, I have every reasons to believe that ignoring the problem or compartmentalizing it will only exacerbate the situation, not improve it. That ostracism from the political process fuels radicalism, not undermine it.

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