[split] LGBT+ Jesus
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26-08-2017, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2017 04:03 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(26-08-2017 07:48 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If you want to understand Christianity I recommend this link:

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

I'm pretty sure I already understand Christianity better than Matt Slick does, but it's been a while before I've had anything to sink my teeth into and I've never really had a go at CARM, and MAYBE I'll learn something, so I'll give it a whirl. I know that you, personally, did not author these, but you, personally, ARE recommending them, so I shall take them as indicative of your own position unless you withdraw your endorsement.

*clickety*

.... huh, okay, so it looks like a collection of essays on different topics. I'll just sample the first one for now. Depending on how bullshitty it is, I might not see any personal-learning value in continuing... but I MIGHT see some entertainment value.

So.... first essay, titled "What Is Christianity?", by our old friend Matt Slick. If you are a brain or have a brain, you may wish to avert your eyes. Or better yet, since this is going to be long, I'll hide it behind a spoiler button.

Quote:Christianity is a religion based upon the teachings and miracles of Jesus. Jesus is the Christ.

Alleged miracles. Also, alleged teachings. But okay, this guy's convinced it's true and he's obviously giving a sales pitch, so I won't really count this as dishonest. Perhaps misinformed, but not dishonest.

Quote:The word "christ" means anointed one. Christ is not Jesus' last name.

No quibbles there.

Quote:Jesus is the anointed one from God the Father who came to this world, fulfilled the Old Testament laws and prophecies, died on the cross, and rose from the dead physically.

..... okay.... still just a sales pitch... still not fundamentally dishonest...

Quote:He performed many miracles which were recorded in the Gospels by the eyewitnesses.

Actually, what was finally recorded in the gospels, roughly half a century after the alleged events, were (at best) second-hand accounts of the miracles.

Quote:He is divine in nature as well as human.

My understanding is that this was actually an early schism in Christianity that occurred before the Bible was even codified. Docetism was an interpretation of Christianity that was at large even as the (eventually) canonical gospels were being put down on paper that viewed Christ as entirely spiritual (divine) in nature and NOT human. They, along with sects that believed that Christ was primarily human and NOT divine in nature, lost one of the earliest of the many rounds of internal religious wars that Christianity would inflict upon itself, and the victors wrote history, or at least edited it. The canonical gospels were selected AS canonical primarily because they could be interpreted as pointing to Jesus as both human and divine... in short, because they agreed with what the people assembling the texts into a final codex believed. Other gospels were discarded on the basis that they did not do that, and because they were not included in the Bible they are now viewed as apocryphal.

No effort to actually CHECK which version was true was undertaken. It was entirely a matter of unconfirmed faith.

But yeah, okay, that's a decent representation of what MOST Christians believe IN THE PRESENT DAY.

Quote:Thus, He has two natures and is worthy of worship and prayer.

....

... lolwut.

Okay, FIRST QUESTION. Why does having two natures make one worthy of worship and prayer?

But okay, yes, this is a sales pitch attempting to represent what Christians believe and what Christianity is. So SECOND QUESTION.

Is this REALLY why Christians worship and pray?

No. No no no no no and bullshit.

The more Matt slides into abstraction, the more he slides AWAY from what Christianity is. Christians worship and pray because they regard Jesus and God (and maybe the Spirit? Spirit's in there somewhere?) as awe-inspiring beings, and/or beings who can intervene in their lives or afterlives to make them better. They stand in awe of their supposed power, or supposed wisdom, or supposed righteousness or benevolence or superior planning ability or... SOMETHING. Answers vary from individual to individual. But I'd wager that less than one percent of Christians out there, when asked why they worship and pray to Jesus, would answer "because he had two natures, both human and divine".

Quote:Christianity teaches that there is only one God in all existence, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created Adam and Eve.

Huh, so not only were the docetists not Christian, but neither are the... what, it has to be at least a billion... people out there who believe in Christ and resurrection and god and etc and were baptized and take communion and etc etc but think human origins are best accounted for by evolutionary theories, even if the evolution was designed, guided, or otherwise ultimately attributable to God? Wow, there are a lot fewer Christians out there than I thought! GOOD TO KNOW!

Quote:God created man in His image. This does not mean that God has a body of flesh and bones.

So Jacob DIDN'T wrestle with God and beat him with a low blow?

....

*tears out offending pages of his Bible and burns them because, hey, blasphemy*

Quote:Image means the likeness of God's character, rationality, etc.

So.... that's where we get our capacity for genocide? Our racist impulse to favor certain peoples and races over others? Humanity's trend towards misogyny? Our desire to rule over the entire world? The subtle and selfish narcissism that makes us think that everything is all about us?

.... checks out.

.... well, not in any independent-confirmation sort of way, but at least that part of the story hangs together.

Quote:Because we are made in the image of God, every person is worthy of respect and honor.

This only makes sense if we think that God is worthy of respect and honor. Sure, if we believe he exists we might think he could make our lives and afterlives suck hard for not giving these to him... but that's not the same thing as being worthy. As for whether God is worthy... well, see previous comment about genocide, racism, misogyny, megalomania, and narcissism.

Quote:Furthermore, this means that we did not evolve through random processes from a single-celled organism into rational, emotional beings.

Okay, so you ARE saying that people who buy into the Theory of Evolution aren't Christians. Glad to have you confirm that. I'll remind you of it if you start quoting demographics of how many Christians there are based on another, more permissive standard.

Quote:God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden of Eden and gave them the freedom to choose between right and wrong. They chose to sin.

So, since they had the capacity to sin and they were made in God's image.... that means GOD has the capacity to sin, right? Right?

Quote:Sin is doing that which is contrary to the nature and will of God. For example, God cannot lie; therefore, lying is sin.

HUH. So based on just this, and God's character as represented through the Bible, here's a list of things that AREN'T sins:

* Genocide.
* Murder.
* Impregnating a teenage girl without her permission, informed consent, or even awareness. Which I think also counts as adultery, so
* Adultery
* Theft.
* Destruction of private property.
* Slavery.
* Lying. (Yes, it's in there.)
* Double-billing. (HOW many people did he demand do something new in order to keep his covenant with Abraham?)
* Ordering human sacrifice.
* Animal cruelty.
* Child abandonment.
* Standing by and watching every heinous form of torture, rape, murder, child abuse, and any other depravity imaginable and not doing a single thing to prevent it.
* Punishing and even executing children, not for anything they've done, but for what their parents or more-distant ancestors did.
* Siccing bears on children
* Complicity in any of the above, plus also rape, violation of contracts, robbery, more rape, forcible abortion, more rape, fraud....

There's more, of course, but let's switch to the things that this suggests ARE sins because they're foreign to God's nature.

* Eating.
* Being helpless.
* Not knowing everything.
* Getting married.
* Foreskins.
* Basically everything involving bodies, but especially involving genitals.
* Any sense of mystery.
* Vulnerability.
* Self-doubt.

All of these are, according to Matt's definition, sins. Again, the list could go on. I'm going to get back to the essay instead, but I should point out that Christianity's notion of what is and isn't a sin does NOT, by and large, line up with this list. Matt's definition is either a radical departure from mainstream Christian thought, or something he didn't actually take five minutes to think through to see if he could find any holes in it.

.... I'm guessing the latter. Because that's how faith works. So.... yeah, I guess he IS being representative of Christianity.

Quote:The sin of disobeying God that Adam and Eve committed resulted in them being expelled from the Garden of Eden as well as suffering the effects of death.

Not a sin: Killing a slave for disobedience.

Quote:As a result of their sin, their children and all of us inherited a sinful nature.

... lolwut. WHY? I mean, whose free will would be violated if God just took the "sin gene" or however that inheritance works and flipped it off in Eve's newly-conceived offspring, and let the kiddos BACK INTO THE GARDEN when they were born? Was that beyond an omnipotent god's power? Was that possibility something that never occurred to an omniscient god? Was keeping the number who had to suffer due to these two sinning down to just, well, two something that an omnibenevolent god wouldn't do? Did a perfectly just god feel the need to punish their children for a crime that the children had never committed?

....

.... sigh... just a sales pitch... accurate representation of Christian belief... moving on....

Quote:In other words, our offspring are not perfect in nature. Think about it. We don't have to teach children to be selfish or how to lie. They know how to do these things naturally. This shows that we are born in a fallen state.

It shows that this is our natural state, but whether it is something we've fallen to from some higher state is not in the least bit demonstrated by...

.... sigh... sales pitch... accurate representation... moving on...

Quote:Christianity teaches that God is a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not three Gods),

.... what's the difference between one god in a trinity and three gods, again? I mean, I see that you're using DIFFERENT WORDS there, but other than that, what's the difference?

I mean, *I* know that it's a very awkward compromise arrived at during early Christianity to attempt to clumsily reconcile the texts that said Jesus was separate from God and the texts that said Jesus WAS God, and like most post-hoc rationalization it is an incoherent mess. But what's the difference from a Christian perspective?

....

.... okay, fine, that sort of vagary is, in fact, an accurate representation of Christianity. Moving on...

Quote:that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity,

.... wait, they're in order? There's a numbering system?

Quote:that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead physically,

Extra-biblical citation needed.

Quote:and that all people are under the righteous judgment of God because all people have sinned against God.

.... RIGHTEOUS judgement? You mean the righteous judgement of the... accuraterepresentationjustapitchmovingon...

Quote:It teaches that Jesus is the only way to be saved from the coming judgment of God and that salvation is received by faith in the work of Christ on the cross and not by anything that we can do to please God.

Oh, so obedience ISN'T necessary? Huh. .... also, salvation by faith alone? (Ignoring the linguistic sleight of hand making it Christ's works and not our works.) Okay, so CATHOLICS aren't Christians either? Okay, I'll bear that in mind in case you or Matt start quoting numbers of Christians.

Quote:Where all other religions in the world teach that we must do some sort of good in cooperation with God in order to achieve the right to be in God's presence, Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation by grace.

..... since when does Buddhism teach cooperation with God in order to achieve the right to be in God's presence?

.... or Shinto?

.... or Satanism?

..... this isn't even a representation of what most Christians believe, it's...

.... er, wait. MAYBE it is... given what a small kernel the ever-restricting definitions of what Christians believe has shrunk Christianity down to.

Quote:This means that we are not made right before God by our efforts, sincerity, or works. Instead, we are made right before God by faith in what Christ did on the cross.

Not a sin: Sparing someone from what is (apparently) a righteous judgement simply on their capacity to believe an utterly nonsensical story on no evidence whatsoever.

Sin: Making any goddamn sense at all.

Quote:Christianity further teaches that once a person is "born again" (becomes saved) that the Holy Spirit lives in that person and the person is changed: "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17).

.... it wouldn't be an apologetic without a Bible quote, would it?

Also, Holy Spirit living in a person? WHAT DO THOSE WORDS MEAN? They're like word salad, just tossed together at random.

Quote:This means that God actually lives in the person and the Christian then experiences a true and living relationship with God.

STILL WORD SALAD.

....

.... that or a Trill symbiote.

Quote:Therefore, "What is Christianity?" is best answered by saying that it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.

.....

THAT IS A TERRIBLE ANSWER.

.....

So, in summary, that is a HORRIBLE explanation of what Christianity is. It excludes a majority of Christendom, it contradicts the Bible in several respects, it has only the most threadbare of logical coherence and consistency (... actually, no, that one checks out), it is ignorant of the origins of its doctrines (.... no, that checks out too), and it doesn't really EXPLAIN what it means on some key points.

So yeah, my expectations of this site are now so low that I'm not going to peruse it to further my own education. But I might start another thread for disection of everything wrong with your mindset.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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26-08-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(26-08-2017 07:48 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If you want to understand Christianity I recommend this link:

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

Apart from being an absurd recommendation to make to members of an atheist forum, the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry is possibly the last place that'll give unbelievers any unbiassed idea of the Christina ethos. That's like telling atheists to read Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health in order to "understand" Scientology LOL.

Quote:Here is a good place to find out what the Bible really teaches about homosexuality:

https://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

One of the tenet's of TfT is "Our understanding of Bible teaching is that any sexual relationship outside of marriage between a man and a woman falls short of God's plan for His creation (the "one-flesh" relationship, Genesis 2:24; Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh).

Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is an abomination (to'ebah).

And Leviticus 20:13 says: If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Also Romans 1:26-27 says: For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error [NRSV].

And yes... I know that, inevitably, the Christian apologists all have different ways of interpreting this sort of stuff in order to redefine the meanings, and make their purported "truths" more favourable to a 21st-century audience. In many cases they rely on their own idiosyncratic translations of the original Greek and Hebrew languages.

In a nutshell then... yes the bible clearly does indicate that homosexuality is a sin—and punishable by death. Ouch!

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-08-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(26-08-2017 07:48 AM)theophilus Wrote:  If you want to understand Christianity I recommend this link:

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

Here is a good place to find out what the Bible really teaches about homosexuality:

https://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

The irony is that, while you might understand the words, we understand the meaning; and it's fucked... Drinking Beverage

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27-08-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(22-08-2017 06:12 AM)Propwash Wrote:  Sorry to butt in, but if it's any comfort, Jesus never said a single word about GLBT's one way or the other, not a single word, so maybe it wasn't a big issue with him?

I agree, but since he is fictional it does not matter. And to be fair to Christians, most of our 7 billion worldwide still don't have a wide acceptance of LGBT. Japan as much as we love them as our allies just last year allowed their first prefecture(kinda like a county or state) they just had their first prefecture allow same sex unions.

You are not going to find wide acceptance of LGBT in the world unfortunately. Russia cracks down on them and they are a Christian nation too. Islam is even worse compared to western Christianity.

Parts of Asia are more accepting depending, but still not a majority accepting.

Christianity has liberals too, so does every religion. I would say unfortunately the biggest problem is that both left and right of all religions cant see that under their respective umbrella labels the respective sects under the same labels cant agree on the same books or what their icons/heros expect of them.

I will take a liberal Christian, liberal Jew and a liberal Muslim over any right wing of any of those any day, but it is still the same books they all argue over to come to different conclusions.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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27-08-2017, 11:26 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(27-08-2017 02:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(22-08-2017 06:12 AM)Propwash Wrote:  Sorry to butt in, but if it's any comfort, Jesus never said a single word about GLBT's one way or the other, not a single word, so maybe it wasn't a big issue with him?

I agree, but since he is fictional it does not matter...

Can you prove Jesus was fictional? And what about other historical figures like Buddha and Mohammed etc, were they "fictional" too?
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27-08-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
Why should LGBT be accepted as mainstream? It's a fringe community with fringe beliefs, there are good reasons for it not being mainstream. Please don't jump on me for not being "politically correct" I couldn't care less, I don't have to cite the Bible or any other religious book to prove that LGBT shouldn't be accepted as mainstream. The moral debauchery that goes along with LGBT crap is proof enough that mainstream LGBT acceptance would lead to a decline in moral values society-wide. There are good reasons for homosexuals not being accepted throughout history, acceptance of that sort of thing would definitely lead to a nasty fallout in society.
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28-08-2017, 12:00 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(27-08-2017 11:39 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  There are good reasons for homosexuals not being accepted throughout history, acceptance of that sort of thing would definitely lead to a nasty fallout in society.

Yes, as I've said before, some loud noisy GLBT's are their own worst enemy and get them all (including the nice friendly ones) a bad name by pushing their beliefs down our throats, aided and abetted by pol-correct lefties.
For example here are two stills from a McCain Foods TV advert showing a gay couple kissing in front of a toddler they've "adopted".
The ad was screened during programme breaks on national Brit TV throughout yesterday afternoon and was trying to promote the notion that having two dads is "normal", but all the ad has done is to turn more ordinary people against gays..

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28-08-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(27-08-2017 11:26 PM)Propwash Wrote:  
(27-08-2017 02:23 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I agree, but since he is fictional it does not matter...

Can you prove Jesus was fictional? And what about other historical figures like Buddha and Mohammed etc, were they "fictional" too?

Does it matter? We don't give a shit if these religious clowns were "real" in some sense or not. If you want to believe they did all the miraculous shit and rose from the dead, you do so. If you want us to believe that shit - which I don't understand why you do - you're the evangelist. You tell me why I should believe your stupid claims.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-08-2017, 12:11 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(28-08-2017 12:00 AM)Propwash Wrote:  The ad was screened during programme breaks on national Brit TV throughout yesterday afternoon and was trying to promote the notion that having two dads is "normal", but all the ad has done is to turn more ordinary people against gays..

Bullshit. All it did was make you feel uncomfortable. If it had been a man and a woman kissing you wouldn't have had a problem. Sod the fuck off with your bigotry. Gay people are perfectly as ordinary as anyone else.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-08-2017, 01:36 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(28-08-2017 12:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 12:00 AM)Propwash Wrote:  The ad was screened during programme breaks on national Brit TV throughout yesterday afternoon and was trying to promote the notion that having two dads is "normal", but all the ad has done is to turn more ordinary people against gays..

Bullshit. All it did was make you feel uncomfortable. If it had been a man and a woman kissing you wouldn't have had a problem. Sod the fuck off with your bigotry. Gay people are perfectly as ordinary as anyone else.

Lol not really dude
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