[split] LGBT+ Jesus
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24-08-2017, 08:39 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(24-08-2017 07:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 08:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And what if we don't want to be saved?

If your mother's a Jew, you're a Jew. Doesn't matter what you want.

I said, "what if we don't want to be saved?" not "what if we don't want to save?"

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25-08-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(24-08-2017 08:56 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  But how does that work though? Really? Like why would Gods son have to do that? "for it to be possible for us to be forgiven", as in he could just forgive us out of kindess, but wouldn't do so until we sorted his son our first?

God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Quote:IF Jesus was real, which he wasn't Theo, surely this is just post-hoc stuff? To my knowledge, in the stories, Jesus didn't get caught by the roman's on purpose, to allow himself to be crucified did he?

Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

(24-08-2017 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Actually, yes he did. Religious nuts love to cite Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God considering homosexuality a sin. However, the Bible is far from clear that homosexuality was the reason God destroyed those cities. In fact, their inhospitality seems more likely.
Quote:Opinion among most liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish theologians has now reverted to the original Christian belief that Genesis 19 refers to a lack of charity and to ill treatment of strangers.

Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

Quote:It seems to me that God could have made things very clear by making a commandment against homosexuality if he truly considers it sinful, but he didn't. Consider

He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Quote:Finally, God has never said one single thing about the T in LGBT so that definitely needs some clarification from God. And, before you say transgendered people didn't exist back then, a) yes they did - one doesn't have to have an operation to be transgendered and b) God supposedly sees past, present, and future and should have known there would be a need for ruling on the subject for the future.

He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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25-08-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.
I call Bollocks on that one. you realise what you've just written is utter madness? "It didn't actuall take away the sin.." then what was the fucking point? If it wasn't needed, what was the point?

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25-08-2017, 08:52 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 08:56 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  But how does that work though? Really? Like why would Gods son have to do that? "for it to be possible for us to be forgiven", as in he could just forgive us out of kindess, but wouldn't do so until we sorted his son our first?

God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Quote:IF Jesus was real, which he wasn't Theo, surely this is just post-hoc stuff? To my knowledge, in the stories, Jesus didn't get caught by the roman's on purpose, to allow himself to be crucified did he?

Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

(24-08-2017 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Actually, yes he did. Religious nuts love to cite Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God considering homosexuality a sin. However, the Bible is far from clear that homosexuality was the reason God destroyed those cities. In fact, their inhospitality seems more likely.

Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

Quote:It seems to me that God could have made things very clear by making a commandment against homosexuality if he truly considers it sinful, but he didn't. Consider

He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Quote:Finally, God has never said one single thing about the T in LGBT so that definitely needs some clarification from God. And, before you say transgendered people didn't exist back then, a) yes they did - one doesn't have to have an operation to be transgendered and b) God supposedly sees past, present, and future and should have known there would be a need for ruling on the subject for the future.

He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

This fool makes sv look positively reasonable, what a foul bigot.
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25-08-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it.

If somebody "sins" and then "accepts Jesus" what they are saying is "I know I deserve punishment but, hey, you already punished Jesus for nothing he did so lets pretend that his punishment substitutes for mine".

That is a disgustingly immoral doctrine. The whole concept of sacrificing an innocent victim is morally repugnant.

Quote: Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

I don't think that's how the early Hebrews viewed it and your post-hoc rationalizations are laughable.

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25-08-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
I don't know. 13 men on a fishing boat.
Do the math.

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25-08-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 11:33 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I don't know. 13 men on a fishing boat.
Do the math.

Well, there were the fishes, too.


And all of a sudden the Xtian fish symbol takes on a new and rather disconcerting meaning Gasp

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25-08-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(23-08-2017 04:51 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Okay, rant time.

As if Christianity is nothing more than what Jesus says in the NT.

For that matter, as if it's only the NT.

Or only the OT.

The religion is as the religion DOES.

It's not what's written in the book. It's what the religious believe and what they do based on that belief.

So if Jesus in the NT, echoing a lot of the OT, denounces extravagant wealth, says that it's harder for a rich man to get into heaven then a camel to walk through the eye of a needle, and that to get into heaven a man should give all his riches to the poor and follow him...

... and if in the modern day the Prosperity Gospel is saying that people just need to sow a seed by throwing themselves into debt to give the preachers millionaires and it's guaranteed that the person who does this will get their money back many times over...

... then it is the latter that is Christianity. (At least in part, since not all of Christianity is Prosperity Gospel. But if all of it WERE Prosperity Gospel, then that would be Christianity, full stop, no qualifier.)

And if modern Christians, whatever Jesus (and the OT, and Paul, and so on) did or didn't say, torture, defame, disown, imprison, and all-around persecute the LGBT community in the name of Christianity....

... then THAT is Christianity.

And yes, I know. #NotAllChristians. There are, indeed, Christians who do not do and do not desire to do those things. It is even possible that they are a majority of Christians. So that persecution is a part of Christianity, but not all of Christianity.

But still, it is PART of Christianity. It's soaked into the marrow of Christianity's bones, its history is stained and tainted with it, and it continues to be the rallying cry for hundreds of millions of believers even in the present day.

....

My question is this.

Why is it that there are so many of the non-persecuting Christians who see on the one hand hundreds of millions of people using the religion to persecute people of the LGBT community, and disagree with that, thinking that this is the wrong interpretation of Christianity...

... and see on the other hand hundreds of millions of people recoiling from the entire Christian religion in disgust over that persecution (and over many, many many other things), and also disagree with that, thinking it is a disgust directed at a wrong interpretation of Christianity...

... and then proceed to weigh these two (in their mind) problems....

.... brutal, oppressive homophobia on the one hand...

... negative opinion of Christianity in response to homophobia on the other...

... brutal, oppressive homophobia... dislike of Christianity... brutal oppressive homophobia... dislike of Christianity....

... and then decide, AHA! It is obvious which one is more important to address! WE MUST RAISE OUR VOICES AGAINST THE DISLIKE OF CHRISTIANITY!

Those homophobes can do whatever they like! We will privately cluck our tongues at them and do shit-all beyond that!We know they've got the wrong idea about Christianity, but we won't make any effort to set them straight! But the people who find Christianity wanting because of the homophobes? Who are disgusted by Christianity because of the bad actions of the members? THAT'S THE PRIORITY! THOSE PEOPLE MUST BE PREACHED TO! THOSE ARE THE ONES WHO MUST BE PUT RIGHT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY!

Because dislike of Christianity is worse than Christians persecuting its victims, apparently.

And how do I know that's your priority, Mr.-or-Ms.-Propwash?

Because that's what you did first. That's what "priority" MEANS. It's what you do prior to doing anything else.

You're here to set US straight about what Jesus did or didn't say, PRIOR to setting this guy straight, or this guy, or this guy, or any of these people.

THAT'S your priority. Angry

That's why I'm sick unto death of the #NotAllChristians and #That'sNotTrueChristianity crowds. They're so busy trying to copy-edit and correct the responses to the problems in the church, that they HAVEN'T ACTUALLY CORRECTED THE PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH.

And that, too, is Christianity.

That is the correct way of ranting! Bowing

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25-08-2017, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2017 12:26 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 11:51 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(25-08-2017 11:33 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I don't know. 13 men on a fishing boat.
Do the math.

Well, there were the fishes, too.


And all of a sudden the Xtian fish symbol takes on a new and rather disconcerting meaning Gasp

Religion probably blames it all on Eve.
God comes down to the garden and he sees Adam laying there and he has rolled up some leaves and lit them on fire and he's inhaling the smoke.
God says "hey wait a minute something's going on here."
He says to Adam "where is Eve".
Adam says "she's down by the river washing up"
God say "Adam you have had sex haven't you"
Adam confesses. "God I can not lie. I had sex with Eve. I'm a sinner"
God goes down to the river and confronts eve.
"Eve you have had sex with Adam and now you are washing in the river?"
Eve confesses. "God I cannot lie. I am a sinner"
God says "Oh great! Now all my fish are gonna smell like pussy!"

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25-08-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Cool, so the motherfucker is going to send himself to hell? I mean he's done some pretty terrible shit.

But if he's in hell, and all the good little christians are going to be sent to be with him forever, then they'll go to hell; and the people he sent to hell can't be with him, so he'll have to send them to heaven.....

This isn't turning out like you thought huh?
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