[split] LGBT+ Jesus
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25-08-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 08:56 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  But how does that work though? Really? Like why would Gods son have to do that? "for it to be possible for us to be forgiven", as in he could just forgive us out of kindess, but wouldn't do so until we sorted his son our first?

God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Quote:IF Jesus was real, which he wasn't Theo, surely this is just post-hoc stuff? To my knowledge, in the stories, Jesus didn't get caught by the roman's on purpose, to allow himself to be crucified did he?

Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

(24-08-2017 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Actually, yes he did. Religious nuts love to cite Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God considering homosexuality a sin. However, the Bible is far from clear that homosexuality was the reason God destroyed those cities. In fact, their inhospitality seems more likely.

Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

Quote:It seems to me that God could have made things very clear by making a commandment against homosexuality if he truly considers it sinful, but he didn't. Consider

He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Quote:Finally, God has never said one single thing about the T in LGBT so that definitely needs some clarification from God. And, before you say transgendered people didn't exist back then, a) yes they did - one doesn't have to have an operation to be transgendered and b) God supposedly sees past, present, and future and should have known there would be a need for ruling on the subject for the future.

He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

Or of different materials for that matter but, hey, that's inconvenient so we'll ignore that part. Can you say "cherry pick"? I love how xtians feel the need to interpret, on the other hand it is unavoidable since the entire series of writings are contradictory and moronic but then what should we expect from people who pissed in their own water supply?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-08-2017, 12:30 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 08:56 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  But how does that work though? Really? Like why would Gods son have to do that? "for it to be possible for us to be forgiven", as in he could just forgive us out of kindess, but wouldn't do so until we sorted his son our first?

God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Quote:IF Jesus was real, which he wasn't Theo, surely this is just post-hoc stuff? To my knowledge, in the stories, Jesus didn't get caught by the roman's on purpose, to allow himself to be crucified did he?

Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

(24-08-2017 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Actually, yes he did. Religious nuts love to cite Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God considering homosexuality a sin. However, the Bible is far from clear that homosexuality was the reason God destroyed those cities. In fact, their inhospitality seems more likely.

Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

Quote:It seems to me that God could have made things very clear by making a commandment against homosexuality if he truly considers it sinful, but he didn't. Consider

He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Quote:Finally, God has never said one single thing about the T in LGBT so that definitely needs some clarification from God. And, before you say transgendered people didn't exist back then, a) yes they did - one doesn't have to have an operation to be transgendered and b) God supposedly sees past, present, and future and should have known there would be a need for ruling on the subject for the future.

He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

Oh fuuuuuuck off, now.

Holy hell, this fucking guy... Rolleyes
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25-08-2017, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2017 07:12 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Nothing but a flat-out lie. The roll of a messiah was NEVER to be a 'sacrifice", and the Hebrews who did sacrifices NEVER bought that bullshit. You simply made it up to fit and justify your false narrative.

Quote:Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Now all you have to do is prove it really happened.

Quote:Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

Wrong.
1. You have not demonstrated it happened, and IF it did,
2. he could never have gotten away from the authorities ... and in fact AFTER he supposedly was executed, they NEVER mouted a search for him, when he supposedly resurrected .... it's all a pile of crap.

Quote:Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

"Homosexuality" was unknown in human history (as an orientation) until the 19th Century. Your ignorance is astounding.

Quote:He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Wrong. If they raped someone, then married them, it was OK, and they had multiple wives. You're nothing but an indoctrinated fool.

Quote:He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

Misogynistic idiot. At least you could join the 20th Century.
And BTW, the old law is passed away. You cherry-pick the parts you want to keep. You eat pork or wear mixed textiles, or eat shell-fish ? You homophobic fools keep this shit, and dismiss the crap you don't like, as you're obsessed with sex.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-08-2017, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2017 05:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

How do you know that ? If your deity is "just" then the standard exists apart from him, and it's origin remains unexplained, and the creator of justice cannot be god. If whatever your god happens to be, just happens to be "just", then there is no standard, and your ideal is capricious and meaningless. You invented that justification to justify the concept post-hoc. When the young man in Matthew asked Jesus what he had to do to get to heaven, did Jesus say "Just you wait ... I'mma gonna be dyin' for y'all". LMAO.

Don't you fools actually THINK about this drivel before you post it ?
How is it a "just" god created millions of innocent babies in order to starve them and make them suffer this year ?
What a fraud you are Theophiloridiculous.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-08-2017, 05:38 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 08:56 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  But how does that work though? Really? Like why would Gods son have to do that? "for it to be possible for us to be forgiven", as in he could just forgive us out of kindess, but wouldn't do so until we sorted his son our first?

God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished. If we sin either we must suffer the punishment for that sin or a sacrifice must be made to atone for it. Before Jesus came animal sacrifices were required. These sacrifices didn't actually take away sin but served as a way for people to express their faith that God would send a sacrifice that would remove their sins.

Quote:IF Jesus was real, which he wasn't Theo, surely this is just post-hoc stuff? To my knowledge, in the stories, Jesus didn't get caught by the roman's on purpose, to allow himself to be crucified did he?

Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18:4-6 ESV

Jesus could easily have escaped if he had wanted to do so. He told the soldiers not to arrest his disciples and they obeyed. He was in complete control of what happened.

(24-08-2017 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Actually, yes he did. Religious nuts love to cite Sodom and Gomorrah as evidence of God considering homosexuality a sin. However, the Bible is far from clear that homosexuality was the reason God destroyed those cities. In fact, their inhospitality seems more likely.

Homosexuality wasn't the only sin of the men of Sodom but it was definitely one of the sins they were guilty of.

Quote:It seems to me that God could have made things very clear by making a commandment against homosexuality if he truly considers it sinful, but he didn't. Consider

He made it clear that the only acceptable form of sexual activity was that between a man and a woman who were married to each other.

Quote:Finally, God has never said one single thing about the T in LGBT so that definitely needs some clarification from God. And, before you say transgendered people didn't exist back then, a) yes they did - one doesn't have to have an operation to be transgendered and b) God supposedly sees past, present, and future and should have known there would be a need for ruling on the subject for the future.

He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

I don't need to waste time arguing with you about what god said/intended or didn't say/intend. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and compassion can see that there is nothing wrong with being LGBT. Plus there is no god, so there's that. But even IF there was a god who deemed anything LGBT a sin, he/she/it would simply be incorrect and would have clearly established him/her/itself as no god at all.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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25-08-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
Archaeologists have now found hard evidence that the supposed history of the Torah is made up nonsense. There was no exodus, no military campaigns of Joshua conquering the lands of Canaan. None of that happened, it's all an ancient set of lies.
And so then is the bit that on the way to conquering Canaan with it's genocide and massacres commanded by God, that God met with Moses on a mountain top and handed down these supposed laws of Moses, included commands to execute homosexuals.

The biblically mandate homophobia that today's Christians practice is based on lies by ancient billy goat herder priests, not commands by God.

I don't know about the rest of everybody here, but I am tired and disgusted at having these lies reach across 2700 years to inflict stupid dogmas on us today. Its time to admit the truth. Archaeology has demonstrated that this homophobia is based on ancient, baseless lies and nothing more. And its time to point this out forcibly to our benighted and ignorant theists. Until they get it.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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25-08-2017, 11:27 PM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 10:06 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  I don't know about the rest of everybody here, but I am tired and disgusted at having these lies reach across 2700 years to inflict stupid dogmas on us today. Its time to admit the truth. Archaeology has demonstrated that this homophobia is based on ancient, baseless lies and nothing more. And its time to point this out forcibly to our benighted and ignorant theists. Until they get it.

I differ with you on two points.

First, I regard this homophobia as being based on modern moral turpitude, seduction to the feeling of power that comes with persecuting others, and the general all-around hatefulness of social conservatism, AS ENABLED BY millenia-old lies. The root cause is very much the obscene, distorted characters (dare I say souls?) of PRESENT DAY people... and the Bible is just a convenient fig leaf they use to justify the atrocities that they wanted to do anyway. They would not have been decent chaps had they only not been twisted into monsters due to them faultlessly falling into the grips of religion at a tender and impressionable age. Certainly this type of hatred manifests in more places than religion. Some atheists too do this... albeit at far lower rates. Religion NORMALIZES and ENABLES it in much the same way that dry brush and hot wind enables a discarded cigarette butt to burn down a hundred square miles of forest. But it's not the source. I deny these scoundrels even that last refuge of an excuse. The problem is THEM. Tearing down the religion removes the weapon from their hands, but their hands are still the hands of a person who would wield the weapon if they could only grasp it.

And second, strike out "tired" from "tired and disgusted" and replace it with "enraged". I've been there ever since I saw pastors and ministers cheering the Orlando shooting, and I don't think I'm ever going to leave there.
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26-08-2017, 12:20 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 11:27 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(25-08-2017 10:06 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  I don't know about the rest of everybody here, but I am tired and disgusted at having these lies reach across 2700 years to inflict stupid dogmas on us today. Its time to admit the truth. Archaeology has demonstrated that this homophobia is based on ancient, baseless lies and nothing more. And its time to point this out forcibly to our benighted and ignorant theists. Until they get it.

I differ with you on two points.

First, I regard this homophobia as being based on modern moral turpitude, seduction to the feeling of power that comes with persecuting others, and the general all-around hatefulness of social conservatism, AS ENABLED BY millenia-old lies. The root cause is very much the obscene, distorted characters (dare I say souls?) of PRESENT DAY people... and the Bible is just a convenient fig leaf they use to justify the atrocities that they wanted to do anyway. They would not have been decent chaps had they only not been twisted into monsters due to them faultlessly falling into the grips of religion at a tender and impressionable age. Certainly this type of hatred manifests in more places than religion. Some atheists too do this... albeit at far lower rates. Religion NORMALIZES and ENABLES it in much the same way that dry brush and hot wind enables a discarded cigarette butt to burn down a hundred square miles of forest. But it's not the source. I deny these scoundrels even that last refuge of an excuse. The problem is THEM. Tearing down the religion removes the weapon from their hands, but their hands are still the hands of a person who would wield the weapon if they could only grasp it.

And second, strike out "tired" from "tired and disgusted" and replace it with "enraged". I've been there ever since I saw pastors and ministers cheering the Orlando shooting, and I don't think I'm ever going to leave there.

America's rabid homophobes do not base their attacks on gays on "because we don't like queers". But at bottom of it all is the Bible, the OT. Without that, the homophobia we see around us would be pointless and toothless. And much easier to fight. When millions of eedjits think God demanded we kill homosexuals, we are going to have problems because of that.

The way to fight this is to point out the truth. The OT is faux history as proven by immanent and knowledgeable Near East archaeologists. And to pound on this fact until enough people with access to the net realize it and know that when they start up with this crap, they are going to get hammered with the facts.

When it becomes almost a ritual, that when the homophobes sound off they will be hammered with these facts, it will sooner or later take the fun right out of homophobia.

Whack 'em with clue stick again and again and again. Whackety whackety WHACK!

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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26-08-2017, 12:37 AM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2017 12:40 AM by Astreja.)
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
(25-08-2017 08:04 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God is just and his nature won't allow injustice to go unpunished.

Since eternal punishment for temporal crimes is infinitely evil and infinitely unjust, your god must now be cast into hell for a time-out of its own. (Don't worry, Theo -- You can have the sorry blighter back just as soon as it taps out.)

Quote:He created male and female and he assigned specific roles to each. In the Law people were forbidden to even wear clothing that was made for the other sex.

I don't do assigned roles. I create My own.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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26-08-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: [split] LGBT+ Jesus
If you want to understand Christianity I recommend this link:

https://carm.org/answers-for-seekers

Here is a good place to find out what the Bible really teaches about homosexuality:

https://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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