[split] LGBT (sub)section?
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14-06-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Vera Wrote:  Um, the Pride is a reaction against having to hide from the eyes of society for centuries, so it's absolutely not comparable to just bragging about or showcasing parts of who you are. It's about "we are not going to hide anymore, just because who we are makes *you* uncomfortable".

I at best don't much care about demonstrations and crowds of people gathered together in one place and at worst downright detest them, but there is - still - a bigger point behind the Pride parades. As this forum has plentifully proven. Drinking Beverage

I agree, I mentioned the same earlier in the thread. I was more responding to why people "parade" it around/have it in their homes.
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14-06-2017, 10:06 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 09:35 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:30 AM)Emma Wrote:  Actually, I don't. Teach me, senpai.

Oh right, the tiny brain.
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14-06-2017, 10:13 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:39 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  That is fair enough, I forgot about the bathroom bill momentarily. I agree the idea behind why politicians campaign for it is ridiculous but many others see that as so too. It's stupid and I feel many treat it as such and I imagine that with enough people talking about that particular issue it might sway opinions.

I fail to see how it would require more than that, honestly...
Having pride parades, and LGBT specific things seems... excessive and alienating to the members of the LGBT. Almost creating an "us and them" mentality. I'm not saying that it is an inherently negative one. We're all humans, no need for it, I think.

I recognize that there's probably not anything I can say to convince you that Pride parades have been helpful to the community and continue to be helpful.

It might feed into an "us and them" mentality to a degree. But that mentality already exists, it doesn't create it. Pride is a place for the oppressed out-group (LGBT people) to summon courage and regain some self-love in a society that is still quite rife with systematic oppression and negativity toward them. And sure, Pride events can be really "extra" sometimes, but they are damn fun places to be, too.

Firstly, I would like to point out that I am not "stuck in my ways" as your response implied. I would care to have my arguments to be improved upon, should I deem it valued.

While I'm sure that they help people feel like they are apart of a community and helps them feel like they can be who they are I don't see how this cannot be achieved with simple acceptance of the LGBT in majority. If most people would look at you no differently than you are then what's the point in partaking in, for lack of a better term "self segregation". I know we do this with a lot of things in our lives, philosophical dispositions being one, being on an atheist forum another. But surely, you can see that these are not fundamental biological principles? They are viewpoints. Why not have the parades be that of "egalitarianism" or something of the sort to stand for equality if that is what they are for?

It doesn't create it, no. But at this point it seems to exacerbate it. Perhaps not specifically to myself, but an internet search will prove that this "us and them" perspective is prevalent because of this issue in particular.
I simply want everyone to view each other as "normal". Which is where I feel Muffs stands on the topic and others here on the forums. Making it "LGBT people" and not "people" is where I start to be concerned generally.


And, for the record, I have no solution to this problem other than good ole debate and hearty discussion.
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14-06-2017, 10:20 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Vera Wrote:  Um, the Pride is a reaction against having to hide from the eyes of society for centuries, so it's absolutely not comparable to just bragging about or showcasing parts of who you are. It's about "we are not going to hide anymore, just because who we are makes *you* uncomfortable".

I at best don't much care about demonstrations and crowds of people gathered together in one place and at worst downright detest them, but there is - still - a bigger point behind the Pride parades. As this forum has plentifully proven. Drinking Beverage

I still refer back to my original point of this.
While, I suppose there is more work to do, I still think that the majority of opinion currently weighs against bigotry.

Might I ask, if this your view, when should we stop having pride parades because it is considered passe?
Why not have black pride parades, jewish parades, etc. I'm sure some in those categories might like to feel pride after having been subjected, no? I'm just pointing this out, is all. Like I said, I'm sure it may be psychologically helpful for some within the community but shouldn't we be trying to "normalize" this instead of calling attention to differences on such a scale?
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14-06-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:39 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  That is fair enough, I forgot about the bathroom bill momentarily. I agree the idea behind why politicians campaign for it is ridiculous but many others see that as so too. It's stupid and I feel many treat it as such and I imagine that with enough people talking about that particular issue it might sway opinions.

I fail to see how it would require more than that, honestly...
Having pride parades, and LGBT specific things seems... excessive and alienating to the members of the LGBT. Almost creating an "us and them" mentality. I'm not saying that it is an inherently negative one. We're all humans, no need for it, I think.

I recognize that there's probably not anything I can say to convince you that Pride parades have been helpful to the community and continue to be helpful.

It might feed into an "us and them" mentality to a degree. But that mentality already exists, it doesn't create it. Pride is a place for the oppressed out-group (LGBT people) to summon courage and regain some self-love in a society that is still quite rife with systematic oppression and negativity toward them. And sure, Pride events can be really "extra" sometimes, but they are damn fun places to be, too.

In most big cities now, (and it certainly didn't used to be this way), Pride is now a "total community day", like something *everyone* goes to ... moms, dads, the kids, the dog ... it's transformed from a "gay" thing now to a general community "thing to do thing". It used to bother me also, that it was a "separation thing". Not any more, (as Clouseau would say).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-06-2017, 10:25 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Emma Wrote:  I recognize that there's probably not anything I can say to convince you that Pride parades have been helpful to the community and continue to be helpful.

It might feed into an "us and them" mentality to a degree. But that mentality already exists, it doesn't create it. Pride is a place for the oppressed out-group (LGBT people) to summon courage and regain some self-love in a society that is still quite rife with systematic oppression and negativity toward them. And sure, Pride events can be really "extra" sometimes, but they are damn fun places to be, too.

In most big cities now, (and it certainly didn't used to be this way), Pride is now a "total community day", like something *everyone* goes to ... moms, dads, the kids, the dog ... it's transformed from a "gay" thing now to a general community "thing to do thing". It used to bother me also, that it was a "separation thing". Not any more, (as Clouseau would say).

What changed your opinion, if I can ask?
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14-06-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 10:25 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  In most big cities now, (and it certainly didn't used to be this way), Pride is now a "total community day", like something *everyone* goes to ... moms, dads, the kids, the dog ... it's transformed from a "gay" thing now to a general community "thing to do thing". It used to bother me also, that it was a "separation thing". Not any more, (as Clouseau would say).

What changed your opinion, if I can ask?

I always had a "different" view of *everything* (cuz I was always an arrogant cuss, and never felt *bad* about being gay ... I always had at least one or two "popular/jock/normal appearing" friends who I knew also were gay .. so I never felt the separation/alienation the vast majority of gays *used* to feel ... maybe young ones still do (?) ... but I always thought "sexual orientation is a thing to march about .. how stupid is that, it's neither here nor there .. meh" ... now I do see that it's important to some in ways I never knew about.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-06-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 10:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 10:25 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  What changed your opinion, if I can ask?

I always had a "different" view of *everything* (cuz I was always an arrogant cuss, and never felt *bad* about being gay ... I always had at least one or two "popular/jock/normal appearing" friends who I knew also were gay .. so I never felt the separation/alienation the vast majority of gays *used* to feel ... maybe young ones still do (?) ... but I always thought "sexual orientation is a thing to march about .. how stupid is that, it's neither here nor there .. meh" ... now I do see that it's important to some in ways I never knew about.

I understand that it is perhaps psychologically beneficial to an extent because it allows members of the LGBT to find solace in their sexuality if they were not privileged to grow up in an accepting environment.

My point is only that, now, especially now, it is hard pressed for teenagers to not support LGBT, so most LGBT individuals need not feel so isolated when they are starting to understand their sexuality fully. I know that does not make amends for older LGBT individuals who did not have that privilege. But, surely, this an issue like any other one? There will always be people who do not accept and hate wouldn't it be healthier to acknowledge that those people exist now and have existed but be happy in the fact that many people do not subscribe to that way of thinking, or are at the very least tolerant of individuals currently?

I do thing it does feed an "us and them" mentality and for this reason I do not like it. That isn't to say I want them gone, or that I dislike people who partake in activities. I will respect what you do in your fair time and be glad that you're content with what you like to do and what you find meaningful. I'm only expressing that I do not think that it is necessary when there are other supplements that could, arguably, be healthier for social construct, and perhaps even the individual.
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14-06-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 10:13 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:58 AM)Emma Wrote:  I recognize that there's probably not anything I can say to convince you that Pride parades have been helpful to the community and continue to be helpful.

It might feed into an "us and them" mentality to a degree. But that mentality already exists, it doesn't create it. Pride is a place for the oppressed out-group (LGBT people) to summon courage and regain some self-love in a society that is still quite rife with systematic oppression and negativity toward them. And sure, Pride events can be really "extra" sometimes, but they are damn fun places to be, too.

Firstly, I would like to point out that I am not "stuck in my ways" as your response implied. I would care to have my arguments to be improved upon, should I deem it valued.

While I'm sure that they help people feel like they are apart of a community and helps them feel like they can be who they are I don't see how this cannot be achieved with simple acceptance of the LGBT in majority. If most people would look at you no differently than you are then what's the point in partaking in, for lack of a better term "self segregation". I know we do this with a lot of things in our lives, philosophical dispositions being one, being on an atheist forum another. But surely, you can see that these are not fundamental biological principles? They are viewpoints. Why not have the parades be that of "egalitarianism" or something of the sort to stand for equality if that is what they are for?

It doesn't create it, no. But at this point it seems to exacerbate it. Perhaps not specifically to myself, but an internet search will prove that this "us and them" perspective is prevalent because of this issue in particular.
I simply want everyone to view each other as "normal". Which is where I feel Muffs stands on the topic and others here on the forums. Making it "LGBT people" and not "people" is where I start to be concerned generally.


And, for the record, I have no solution to this problem other than good ole debate and hearty discussion.

You're right, I shouldn't have implied that you are stuck in your ways- I'm sorry for that.

However, I disagree that Pride events are self-segregating. Everyone is welcome at Pride so long as they aren't going to assault people. There is no LGBT-status verification or anything like that. Everyone is welcome to come and celebrate, drink, party, whatever. It's individuals themselves who may choose not to attend for reasons of being against that group. Aren't they the ones self-segregating?

And I disagree that debate and discussion is enough to change other peoples' thoughts on LGBT people. It's a part of the approach to change and improve situations for us.
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14-06-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: [split] LGBT (sub)section?
(14-06-2017 10:51 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 10:13 AM)Larai19 Wrote:  Firstly, I would like to point out that I am not "stuck in my ways" as your response implied. I would care to have my arguments to be improved upon, should I deem it valued.

While I'm sure that they help people feel like they are apart of a community and helps them feel like they can be who they are I don't see how this cannot be achieved with simple acceptance of the LGBT in majority. If most people would look at you no differently than you are then what's the point in partaking in, for lack of a better term "self segregation". I know we do this with a lot of things in our lives, philosophical dispositions being one, being on an atheist forum another. But surely, you can see that these are not fundamental biological principles? They are viewpoints. Why not have the parades be that of "egalitarianism" or something of the sort to stand for equality if that is what they are for?

It doesn't create it, no. But at this point it seems to exacerbate it. Perhaps not specifically to myself, but an internet search will prove that this "us and them" perspective is prevalent because of this issue in particular.
I simply want everyone to view each other as "normal". Which is where I feel Muffs stands on the topic and others here on the forums. Making it "LGBT people" and not "people" is where I start to be concerned generally.


And, for the record, I have no solution to this problem other than good ole debate and hearty discussion.

You're right, I shouldn't have implied that you are stuck in your ways- I'm sorry for that.

However, I disagree that Pride events are self-segregating. Everyone is welcome at Pride so long as they aren't going to assault people. There is no LGBT-status verification or anything like that. Everyone is welcome to come and celebrate, drink, party, whatever. It's individuals themselves who may choose not to attend for reasons of being against that group. Aren't they the ones self-segregating?

And I disagree that debate and discussion is enough to change other peoples' thoughts on LGBT people. It's a part of the approach to change and improve situations for us.

It's quite alright. Smile I know that usually, in topics such as these, that viewpoint tends to be the case. I make no offense for you assuming that I might be like those to whom I'm sure you've debated before.

I do not mean it in the sense of literalism. I know that people of any sexuality and gender are welcome to attend. It is more of a theme issue. It focus's on something biological, not ideological. I wouldn't be concerned with this if it was general but it is specific to something that one cannot control. I know that LGBT have generally, gone through so much, and I'm quite sorry about how unfair things were and still to an extent are.

I just think that, as of right now, there may be better ways to fight bigotry, and help heal injustices, gain new companions, and, most importantly, feel apart of something. Like I said, I feel the goal is to be completely indifferent to others sexualities, not parade them. It makes them have a sort of special attention, that I fear can cause bigotry in possibly an opposite way that we have seen it historically, and maybe exacerbate the bigotry as it has been with those who are against the LGBT.

I think words give more credit than actions in cases like these. Being persuasive in arguments can turn someone from against to for more than, say, a strike may.
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