[split] Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
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24-12-2013, 08:13 AM
[split] Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
ETTTTT.......

Sorry, but Buddhism is a human concocted club with rituals and "holy men" rooted in the same scientifically ignorant past as all religions. It holds no monopoly on human morality nor did Buddhism invent human morality. It merely is just another club of superstitious people. Lacking belief in a god or gods does not make it special to our species.

I don't need the Dali Lama to tell me not to rob my neighbor anymore than I need the Pope. There is no "misunderstanding". Buddhism is as much woo as any other human concocted woo.

Buddhism is not required in evolution to make offspring. So it, like all other religions, are merely tribal concoctions based on traditions, god or no gods.

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24-12-2013, 09:41 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 12:59 PM by WindyCityJazz.)
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 08:13 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  ETTTTT.......

Sorry, but Buddhism is a human concocted club with rituals and "holy men" rooted in the same scientifically ignorant past as all religions. It holds no monopoly on human morality nor did Buddhism invent human morality. It merely is just another club of superstitious people. Lacking belief in a god or gods does not make it special to our species.

I don't need the Dali Lama to tell me not to rob my neighbor anymore than I need the Pope. There is no "misunderstanding". Buddhism is as much woo as any other human concocted woo.

Buddhism is not required in evolution to make offspring. So it, like all other religions, are merely tribal concoctions based on traditions, god or no gods.

I am not Buddhist, but I have never met a single Buddhist who claims anything you said about Buddhism to be true.

Buddhists will be the first ones to tell you that the Buddha was a man, not a god.

Buddhism teaches people to question everything to find truth. It doesn't say "This is the way it is, and that's all there is to it!" The Dalai Lama said himself "If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

I have never met a Buddhist who claims that Buddhism invented morality, or that Buddhism has a monopoly on morality. Nor does it claim that you need the Dalai Lama to know the difference from right and wrong. Do you need government to make laws to tell you not to kill people?

Sure, Buddhism has figureheads. So does government. Does that make government a form of 'woo'?

No Buddhist has ever claimed that we need Buddhism to reproduce. Humans have been on this planet for a few million years. Long before the existence of government or science. If we needed those to reproduce, then the human race would have died out a long time ago. Animals don't have science or written laws, yet lions don't go around wildly killing other lions. They still have families and structure.

In all honesty, I simply don't see the harm in Buddhism. Unlike Christianity, Islam, and other religions, it doesn't hinder progress. As the Dalai Lama said, it will follow scientific progress. So what is the harm in it? We don't have to be on some atheistic crusade trying to wipe out anything and everything that doesn't agree with us. Otherwise we're no better than the religious groups we criticize for using those ways.

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24-12-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 08:13 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  ETTTTT.......

Sorry, but Buddhism is a human concocted club with rituals and "holy men"

So is NFL football.

Quote:...rooted in the same scientifically ignorant past as all religions.

Is ther any human endeavor that isn't rooted in the same past?

Quote:It holds no monopoly on human morality

Nor does it claim to. Thus the Buddha's use of reincarnation-belief as a teaching tool. He saw it as a crude but somewhat effective device to lead one toward morality and ethical behavior, and said so. So he did acknowledge that there were and are other roads to human morality. No claim of "monopoly".


Quote:nor did Buddhism invent human morality.

Nor does it claim to. You do realize that you are building an army of strawmen here. I know you well enough to know that you should be able to see this.

Quote: It merely is just another club of superstitious people.

Guess how I know you haven't thought this through.


Quote: Lacking belief in a god or gods does not make it special to our species.

'Nuther strawman. What makes it special in my eyes is that it is a system of morality, a psychology, and a system of mental training that is not dependent on superstitious beliefs.


Quote:I don't need the Dali Lama to tell me not to rob my neighbor anymore than I need the Pope.

Funny, the Buddha might tell you something quite similar if he were alive.


Quote:There is no "misunderstanding". Buddhism is as much woo as any other human concocted woo.

Because you say so, out of hand, having not examined it critically. Sounds like a religious sort of opinion to me.

How about I post the text of one of the Buddha's discourses and you tell me exactly where the woo is in it.


Quote:Buddhism is not required in evolution to make offspring.

REALLY? What sort of horseshit is that, Brian? I would have thought better of you than to go on such a nonsensical rant.


Quote: So it, like all other religions, are merely tribal concoctions based on traditions, god or no gods.

Um, science is not required in evolution to make offspring, either. Does that make it a "religion...merely [a] tribal concoction based on traditions, god or no gods"?

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24-12-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 12:54 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 09:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  No it doesn't.

The body gets recycled, no? That includes the brain and memories and such.

IF there is something else, like some sort of energy we haven't figured out how to measure yet, it would get recycled too, like everything else on earth.

Doesn't mean it has a consciousness, doesn't mean it stays as one unit, just means it ends up contributing to something else.

This is the same retrofitting after the fact I have seen Christians and Muslims and Jews and most recently a Hindu do.

The claims of reincarnation were superstitious woo having nothing to do with modern scientific knowledge of atoms or biological decay after death.

The ancient greeks had a word for atom and also thought that things merely transferred from one form to another. But they too as well did not have any modern working knowledge of what an atom is or what entropy is.


FTR, I don't disagree with any of that. But here's where you run afoul:


Quote:Attempting to place Buddhism as the starting point of human knowledge is stupid.

Who here is doing that, really? Can I see a show of hands?


Quote:We have our modern knowledge in spite of any religion, not because of it.

Has anyone here made any claim to the contrary?



Quote:Retrofitting after the fact is the same no matter who is doing it or what religion they are trying to prop up with it.

And strawmanning is still strawmanning, and making sweeping ignorant generalizations is still making sweeping ignorant generalizations no matter who is doing it or why, and no matter if the actual point you are trying to make is valid (that about reincarnation-belief being woo).

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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24-12-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 09:41 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 08:13 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  ETTTTT.......

Sorry, but Buddhism is a human concocted club with rituals and "holy men" rooted in the same scientifically ignorant past as all religions. It holds no monopoly on human morality nor did Buddhism invent human morality. It merely is just another club of superstitious people. Lacking belief in a god or gods does not make it special to our species.

I don't need the Dali Lama to tell me not to rob my neighbor anymore than I need the Pope. There is no "misunderstanding". Buddhism is as much woo as any other human concocted woo.

Buddhism is not required in evolution to make offspring. So it, like all other religions, are merely tribal concoctions based on traditions, god or no gods.

I am not Buddhist, but I have never met a single Buddhist who claims anything you said about Buddhism to be true.

Buddhists will be the first ones to tell you that the Buddha was a man, not a god.

Buddhism teaches people to question everything to find truth. It doesn't say "This is the way it is, and that's all there is to it!" The Dalai Lama said himself "If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

I have never met a Buddhist who claims that Buddhism invented morality, or that Buddhism has a monopoly on morality. Nor does it claim that you need the Dalai Lama to know the difference from right and wrong. Do you need government to make laws to tell you not to kill people?

Sure, Buddhism has figureheads. So does government. Does that make government a form of 'woo'?

No Buddhist has ever claimed that we need Buddhism to reproduce. Humans have been on this planet for a few million years. Long before the existence of government or science. If we needed those to reproduce, then the human race would have died out a long time ago. Animals don't have science or written laws, yet lions don't go around wildly killing other lions. They still have families and structure.

In all honesty, I simply don't see the harm in Buddhism. Unlike Christianity, Islam, and other religions, it doesn't hinder progress. As the Dalai Lama said, it will follow scientific progress. So what is the harm in it? We don't have to be on some atheistic crusade trying to wipe out anything and everything that doesn't agree with us. Otherwise we're no better than the religious groups we criticize for using those ways.
Still missing my point.

I don't care if a religion is centered around a god or not. The entire reason for ALL religion is human credulity that creates a placebo affect. In evolution it isn't about fact finding. It is about cooperation, even if that is centered around superfluous garbage.

Any "wisdom" that can be found in Buddhism can be found in other stories and themes in all cultures past and present.

Buddhism is a woo club having nothing to do with the reality that humans have always exhibited the same range of behaviors both good and bad, both cruel and compassionate.

It still has religious social orders with monks and the boss(the Dali Lama). It still has superstitious repetitions(prayer, even if not to a god) and meaningless monuments (club houses). And it also has different sects.

Read Victor Stenger's "The New Atheism", in one of the later chapters it specifically deals with oriental religions including Buddhism. It also deals with Taoism and Janism(sp). Although the book deals with god claims it overlaps with the correct analogy that humans stupidly think a religion makes them special.

To say that Buddhists can't have some sort of superstition is bullshit. I know atheists who while rightfully rejecting all god claims believe other absurd shit themselves, like Star Trek means the transporter will be a future reality.

Buddhism is club like all religions are. They are a tribal reflection of culture.

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24-12-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
Quote:As the Dalai Lama said, it will follow scientific progress.

Right, so how is that any different than when Christians Or Muslims argue that science props up their clubs? And you get stuck on him because of the Tibet issue. Have you ever looked up the world history of the orient? Just like the rest of the world it has also had it's violence. Japan and China are not exactly friends and both are full of Buddhists.

Same bullshit different religion. He says that because it helps him remain relevant and popular and keeps Buddhism alive.

I don't care what the Dali Lama says. Humans fuck and reproduce because of evolution. Good for him he accepts science, but that does not make a Dali Lama a requirement for humans to exist at all.

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24-12-2013, 05:00 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
Quote:We don't have to be on some atheistic crusade trying to wipe out anything and everything that doesn't agree with us.

Sorry Drama queen. But this has nothing to do with human rights. This as to do with your attitude of "but he's a nice guy" missing the point that that it does not make his religion a necessity. I know lots of nice people of all religions but that does not mean EVER that they actually need their religion, it only means they like it.

Saying "your religion is not needed"(ANY RELIGION) is not a "crusade" anymore than saying "the earth is not flat" is a "crusade". Humans live now without believing Thor makes lightening. We also live without believing in the Egyptian sun god Ra. Please tell me why Buddhism should avoid scrutiny?

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24-12-2013, 06:38 PM
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
OH, for crying out loud, Brian. Were you the one who went on this same idiotic and fact-free tirade about Buddhism at AFC?

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24-12-2013, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 11:20 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
Brian37, why are you attacking Windy and ignoring my posts? Remember the last time you got schooled when you went on this same idiotic tirade?


(24-12-2013 04:37 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Still missing my point.


Not convinced you have one.

Quote:I don't care if a religion is centered around a god or not. The entire reason for ALL religion is human credulity that creates a placebo affect.

Citation needed for your bald and unsupported assertion.

Just because some notion pops up in your head doesn't make it true.


Quote: In evolution it isn't about fact finding. It is about cooperation, even if that is centered around superfluous garbage.

You are making wild and irrelevant sweeping generalizations about all religion.


Quote:Any "wisdom" that can be found in Buddhism can be found in other stories and themes in all cultures past and present.

No one is claiming otherwise. However, the Buddha did put a lot of very good ideas together in a unique, relevant, significant and eminently useful way.


Quote:Buddhism is a woo club having nothing to do with the reality that humans have always exhibited the same range of behaviors both good and bad, both cruel and compassionate.

Oh, look, another bald and unsupported assertion. No surprise.


Quote:It still has religious social orders with monks and the boss(the Dali Lama).

Dalai Lama is only the head of one sect of the tibetan religions. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.


Quote:It still has superstitious repetitions(prayer, even if not to a god) and meaningless monuments (club houses). And it also has different sects.

Some sects do, some don't. Your rant is irrelevant.

Quote:Read Victor Stenger's "The New Atheism", in one of the later chapters it specifically deals with oriental religions including Buddhism. It also deals with Taoism and Janism(sp). Although the book deals with god claims it overlaps with the correct analogy that humans stupidly think a religion makes them special.

No. Why don't you quote what he says about Buddhism, if it's relevant.



Quote:To say that Buddhists can't have some sort of superstition is bullshit.

[Image: strawmanargument.jpg]


Quote:I know atheists who while rightfully rejecting all god claims believe other absurd shit themselves, like Star Trek means the transporter will be a future reality.

Irrelevant.

Quote:Buddhism is club like all religions are. They are a tribal reflection of culture.

So is this forum. So what?




Quote:
Quote:As the Dalai Lama said, it will follow scientific progress.

Right, so how is that any different than when Christians Or Muslims argue that science props up their clubs?

Dalai Lama doesn't outright deny scientific understanding of the world like xtians and muslims do.


Quote: And you get stuck on him because of the Tibet issue.

What tibet issue is that? I don't think WCJ said a single thing about a Tibet issue. I wonder how many strawman pictures I can find on the internet to post.

Quote:Have you ever looked up the world history of the orient? Just like the rest of the world it has also had it's violence. Japan and China are not exactly friends and both are full of Buddhists.

All of the members of TTA aren't exactly friendly, and it''s full of atheists.

Quote:Same bullshit different religion.

'Nuther unfounded sweeping generalization.


Quote:He says that because it helps him remain relevant and popular and keeps Buddhism alive.

OH, and look, Brian can read minds, too. Nice superpowers ya got there, sport.

Quote:I don't care what the Dali Lama says.

Looks like you do. Enough to rant for three-four posts over it.


Quote: Humans fuck and reproduce because of evolution.

Um, actually no. We reproduce because we fuck, but we fuck because we find each other attractive. Evolution is just a description of trends relating to survival of various species.


Quote:Good for him he accepts science, but that does not make a Dali Lama a requirement for humans to exist at all.

That doesn't even make any sense. Strawman much?


Quote:
Quote:We don't have to be on some atheistic crusade trying to wipe out anything and everything that doesn't agree with us.

Sorry Drama queen. But this has nothing to do with human rights. This as to do with your attitude of "but he's a nice guy" missing the point that that it does not make his religion a necessity. I know lots of nice people of all religions but that does not mean EVER that they actually need their religion, it only means they like it.

[Image: strawmanarmy.jpg]


Quote:Saying "your religion is not needed"(ANY RELIGION) is not a "crusade" anymore than saying "the earth is not flat" is a "crusade". Humans live now without believing Thor makes lightening. We also live without believing in the Egyptian sun god Ra. Please tell me why Buddhism should avoid scrutiny?

No one said it shouldn't, and in fact my participation in this thread is the direct result of my own scrutiny of Buddhism. And it is painfully obvious to me that YOU HAVE UNDERTAKEN NO SUCH SCRUTINY OF BUDDHISM and that you are bleating ignorant shit you pulled right out of your ass.

I suspect that the reason you are avoiding answering MY responses to your tirade is that you know that I will call you on every bullshit wild-ass assertion you make here, as before.



ALSO: THIS IS AN "INTRO" THREAD. WHY ARE YOU TROLLING AN INTRO THREAD?


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24-12-2013, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 10:37 PM by WindyCityJazz.)
RE: Misunderstandings About Buddhism (Compassion4Life intro)
(24-12-2013 05:00 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Sorry Drama queen. But this has nothing to do with human rights. This as to do with your attitude of "but he's a nice guy" missing the point that that it does not make his religion a necessity. I know lots of nice people of all religions but that does not mean EVER that they actually need their religion, it only means they like it.

Saying "your religion is not needed"(ANY RELIGION) is not a "crusade" anymore than saying "the earth is not flat" is a "crusade". Humans live now without believing Thor makes lightening. We also live without believing in the Egyptian sun god Ra. Please tell me why Buddhism should avoid scrutiny?



What is your problem? I never said that Buddhism should avoid scrutiny. I never claimed that Buddhists can't have some sort of superstition. I never claimed that any "wisdom" that can be found in Buddhism originated in Buddhism and that it can't be found in any past culture. I never said that the Orient does not have it's history of violence. I never said you have to give a shit about what the Dalai Lama says, and I certainly never said that a Dalai Lama is required for humans to exist. Quit putting words in my mouth, and try having a civil conversation instead making personal attacks screaming and swearing at people. Instead of screaming and swearing at you, I'm going to take my father's advice about dealing with people who resort to those tactics and not go down that road.

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