[split] Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
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13-09-2015, 01:48 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 01:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 01:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Well....governments tell people what to do AND endanger other people's health, so there's that.....

I'm not really sure what you mean by "rights". Are you referring to our temporary privileges given to us by big daddy government?

Free Market libertarian?

Me? Not so much, unless a person can be a huge supporter of labor unions and still be a free market libertarian.

IMO, a free market is the best way to go so long as strong labor unions are allowed.
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13-09-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 12:49 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 12:27 PM)julep Wrote:  Belief in market forces that lead quickly to equitable, predictable outcomes is based on as much magical thinking as belief in a god who parted the Red Sea.

If market forces operated the way you claim, the Jim Crow south would have been "separate, but equal."

The argument that people should be allowed to be as unhealthy as they please assumes that smoking is injurious only to smokers, which is untrue; that plentiful alternative jobs are available to all workers, also untrue; that it is easy for workers to organize to improve their working conditions, wildly untrue; that countering market forces (that savvy businessman) can respond quickly and easily, may or may not be true--history doesn't suggest it; and that the powerful and wealthy tobacco industry will stay completely out of the fray and never use their influence to favor venues that allow smoking.
@matt sorry but I was that person in that situation and no matter what I said or did the owner said I'm not changing it for anyone unless the government makes me. And they were smoking anywhere they choose in the building including at the bar area where they cooked the food.The owners could care less about anyone but themselves. There was no organizing shit! It was not possible!
???
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13-09-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 12:07 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I'm not suggesting that smoking be allowed at all places. I'm suggesting letting the owners of the business decide. I'm talking about privately owned businesses. I don't want smoking at libraries, schools, and other government buildings.

The market will take care of it.

Except that if the market doesn't take care of it, the employees there, who may have limited or no options, are exposed to carcinogens, while if the market does take care of it, those now unemployed folks are exposed to homelessness and hunger.

Let's talk about the electrical code. Electrical codes were put into place in order to prevent shoddy homebuilders from putting in substandard wiring in order to cut costs and maximize profit. This is because shoddy wiring has been determined to cause fires, and those fires can and do kill people.

In principle, this is the same as no-smoking rules: the government is regulating a private transaction for reasons of safety.

Do you then agree that electrical codes should be abolished, and caveat emptor?

Why, or why not?
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13-09-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 01:48 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  [...] unless a person can be a huge supporter of labor unions and still be a free market libertarian.

Unions are the libertarian reply to overweening plutarchy.
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13-09-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 01:53 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Except that if the market doesn't take care of it, the employees there, who may have limited or no options, are exposed to carcinogens, while if the market does take care of it, those now unemployed folks are exposed to homelessness and hunger.

Well the other option would be for the restaurant to prohibit smoking if that's what the market requires to stay competitive. That's probably the more likely scenario....Drinking Beverage

(13-09-2015 01:53 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Let's talk about the electrical code. Electrical codes were put into place in order to prevent shoddy homebuilders from putting in substandard wiring in order to cut costs and maximize profit. This is because shoddy wiring has been determined to cause fires, and those fires can and do kill people.

In principle, this is the same as no-smoking rules: the government is regulating a private transaction for reasons of safety.

Do you then agree that electrical codes should be abolished, and caveat emptor?

Why, or why not?

I'm all for electrical codes, but that's a little different. No one has a gun to your head saying you have to go the smoky bar downtown.

How about alcohol? Do you think it should be illegal since it poses not only health risks to the users, but also to others in the form of vehicle and related accidents?

I'm not advocating for smoking to be allowed. I'm advocating for freedom to choose.
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13-09-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
Nobody says you can't smoke.

Lots of people say they don't wanting smokers fouling their airspace with cigarette smoke.

Far too many smokers view the whole world as an ashtray.

So, they pass laws restricting where you can smoke.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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13-09-2015, 02:17 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 02:15 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Nobody says you can't smoke.

Lots of people say they don't wanting smokers fouling their airspace with cigarette smoke.

Far too many smokers view the whole world as an ashtray.

So, they pass laws restricting where you can smoke.

All I'm saying is that if a dude owns a bar, it's my preference that he is allowed to decide whether or not he wants to allow smoking. If there's a demand for smoke-free bars, they'll show up. Basic supply/demand principle guarantees it.
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13-09-2015, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2015 04:52 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 02:17 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 02:15 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Nobody says you can't smoke.

Lots of people say they don't wanting smokers fouling their airspace with cigarette smoke.

Far too many smokers view the whole world as an ashtray.

So, they pass laws restricting where you can smoke.

All I'm saying is that if a dude owns a bar, it's my preference that he is allowed to decide whether or not he wants to allow smoking. If there's a demand for smoke-free bars, they'll show up. Basic supply/demand principle guarantees it.

If a dude own a bar in many areas of DFW and he wants to allow smoking he's going to get in trouble as it's against the law.

Invalid argument on your part. Supply and demand is trumped by the law.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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13-09-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 02:17 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 02:15 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Nobody says you can't smoke.

Lots of people say they don't wanting smokers fouling their airspace with cigarette smoke.

Far too many smokers view the whole world as an ashtray.

So, they pass laws restricting where you can smoke.

All I'm saying is that if a dude owns a bar, it's my preference that he is allowed to decide whether or not he wants to allow smoking. If there's a demand for smoke-free bars, they'll show up. Basic supply/demand principle guarantees it.

I worked in bars for years - and that doesn't hold up.

What bar owners did is put in "smoke eaters" -- which really didn't cure the problem. People who drink a lot, tend to smoke a lot as well. Before they banned smoking in bars in Michigan by law - I only know of one bar, that banned smoking -- and that because the owner quit smoking and his wife had asthma.

While bars are privately owned - they are considered "public spaces" insofar as anyone -- including non-smokers could enter. By saying "you can stay out" -- you're basically discriminating against the non-smoker.

Herein lies the why ---

When determining who's right is being infringed -- it's the "doer of the evil" that's going to lose.

You DON'T have to smoke, but you DO have to breath.

Therefore it's the lesser of two evils, to discriminate against the smoker.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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13-09-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Office Depot refuses to print a religious flyer against abortion
(13-09-2015 02:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 02:17 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  All I'm saying is that if a dude owns a bar, it's my preference that he is allowed to decide whether or not he wants to allow smoking. If there's a demand for smoke-free bars, they'll show up. Basic supply/demand principle guarantees it.

If a dude own a bar in many areas of DFW and he wants to allow smoking he's going to get in trouble as it' against the law.

Invalid argument on your part. Supply and demand is trumped by the law.

Right, I don't support that law. That's all that I'm trying to say.
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