[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
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10-07-2013, 07:13 AM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2013 10:19 PM by kingschosen.)
[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
(10-07-2013 06:57 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Derek, the language analogy mostly describes genetic drift which is a major factor in evolution but is random. Natural selection is the non-random component where over hundreds of generations a slightly favourable trait (a +1-2% chance of producing offspring) causes that trait to come to dominate the population over a hundred generations or so.

But if you want to talk about senses specifically, it's hard to imagine a vertebrate developing a new innovative sense. When you think about a sense like touch or taste you need to go back a lot further to simpler animals in order to get a sense of how the change could have occurred. Sight for example is thought by many to have been the driver behind the Cambrian explosion and would have developed in very primitive and very small organisms. Taste is thought to trace back to the earliest single celled organisms and their need to sense different chemicals in their environment.

As modern vertebrates we have a lot of adaptations baked in due to billions of years of evolution, mostly as single-celled organisms. Those aren't things we can just wind back or change. Single cells or very small or simple organisms can survive more radical changes than we can.

Do you think the trend in evolution is of organisms getting more complex?
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10-07-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 06:57 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Derek, the language analogy mostly describes genetic drift which is a major factor in evolution but is random. Natural selection is the non-random component where over hundreds of generations a slightly favourable trait (a +1-2% chance of producing offspring) causes that trait to come to dominate the population over a hundred generations or so.

But if you want to talk about senses specifically, it's hard to imagine a vertebrate developing a new innovative sense. When you think about a sense like touch or taste you need to go back a lot further to simpler animals in order to get a sense of how the change could have occurred. Sight for example is thought by many to have been the driver behind the Cambrian explosion and would have developed in very primitive and very small organisms. Taste is thought to trace back to the earliest single celled organisms and their need to sense different chemicals in their environment.

As modern vertebrates we have a lot of adaptations baked in due to billions of years of evolution, mostly as single-celled organisms. Those aren't things we can just wind back or change. Single cells or very small or simple organisms can survive more radical changes than we can.

Do you think the trend in evolution is of organisms getting more complex?

Genetically more sophisticated yes. More complex not really... Big large complicated species have a short lifespan relative to bacteria.

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10-07-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:10 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  Do you think the trend in evolution is of organisms getting more complex?

Genetically more sophisticated yes. More complex not really... Big large complicated species have a short lifespan relative to bacteria.

It's not even necessary to say "genetically more sophisticated" since natural selection pressures don't act upon the genotype.

There is no trend towards complexity, just as there is no trend towards simplicity. It is adaptation of what you have and that may mean more or less complexity through time.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-07-2013, 08:41 AM
Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:10 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  Do you think the trend in evolution is of organisms getting more complex?

Genetically more sophisticated yes. More complex not really... Big large complicated species have a short lifespan relative to bacteria.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definit...histicated

Sophisticated implies complex in the context we are referring to.
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10-07-2013, 09:04 AM
Questions about evolution?
So is the trend in evolution towards more complexity?

Is there any evidence in evolution that language was an adaption to an environment?

Is there any way one can say x environment was causally related to the development of language?
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10-07-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 09:04 AM)I and I Wrote:  So is the trend in evolution towards more complexity?

Is there any evidence in evolution that language was an adaption to an environment?

"There is no trend towards complexity, just as there is no trend towards simplicity. It is adaptation of what you have and that may mean more or less complexity through time."

Language = adaptation of the ability to generate sound in the throat for the purpose of communication

Communication = ability to communicate threats and/or resources

Communication therefore = positive adaptation

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-07-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
Totally just replied to the wrong thread.

*backs away slowly*

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10-07-2013, 11:32 AM
Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 09:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 09:04 AM)I and I Wrote:  So is the trend in evolution towards more complexity?

Is there any evidence in evolution that language was an adaption to an environment?

"There is no trend towards complexity, just as there is no trend towards simplicity. It is adaptation of what you have and that may mean more or less complexity through time."

Language = adaptation of the ability to generate sound in the throat for the purpose of communication

Communication = ability to communicate threats and/or resources

Communication therefore = positive adaptation

Language, for most if not all of the time humans have had it are abstract/analogous. What environment were humans adapting to that caused language to develop?
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10-07-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 11:32 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 09:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "There is no trend towards complexity, just as there is no trend towards simplicity. It is adaptation of what you have and that may mean more or less complexity through time."

Language = adaptation of the ability to generate sound in the throat for the purpose of communication

Communication = ability to communicate threats and/or resources

Communication therefore = positive adaptation

Language, for most if not all of the time humans have had it are abstract/analogous. What environment were humans adapting to that caused language to develop?

When someone says 'tree' or uses the same sound every time they point at a tree, the benefit is that another human who can understand them, now has an understanding of what the first person means.

Apply the same example to the word 'predator'

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-07-2013, 12:43 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:41 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:10 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Genetically more sophisticated yes. More complex not really... Big large complicated species have a short lifespan relative to bacteria.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definit...histicated

Sophisticated implies complex in the context we are referring to.

In my limited understanding DNA has a way of, over a vast amount of time, refactoring and refining itself and it's mechanisms, this does not necessarily mean a more complex organism, just more sophisticated code...

Sometimes I take a website made by a real moron, or made on real old tech and I refine and upgrade it to run better, smoother, more dynamically. The site itself hasn't changed, the layout, menu's, content all stay the same, but non the less behind the scenes it has become far more sophisticated.

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