[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
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10-07-2013, 12:47 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 12:43 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:41 AM)I and I Wrote:  http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definit...histicated

Sophisticated implies complex in the context we are referring to.

In my limited understanding DNA has a way of, over a vast amount of time, refactoring and refining itself and it's mechanisms, this does not necessarily mean a more complex organism, just more sophisticated code...

Sometimes I take a website made by a real moron, or made on real old tech and I refine and upgrade it to run better, smoother, more dynamically. The site itself hasn't changed, the layout, menu's, content all stay the same, but non the less behind the scenes it has become far more sophisticated.

But your analogy implies that what is being acted upon is the genetic code itself. And it isn't. Selection doesn't work at the genetic level, the genotype takes a ride with the phenotype.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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10-07-2013, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 01:21 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 12:47 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 12:43 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  In my limited understanding DNA has a way of, over a vast amount of time, refactoring and refining itself and it's mechanisms, this does not necessarily mean a more complex organism, just more sophisticated code...

Sometimes I take a website made by a real moron, or made on real old tech and I refine and upgrade it to run better, smoother, more dynamically. The site itself hasn't changed, the layout, menu's, content all stay the same, but non the less behind the scenes it has become far more sophisticated.

But your analogy implies that what is being acted upon is the genetic code itself. And it isn't. Selection doesn't work at the genetic level, the genotype takes a ride with the phenotype.

Selection does occur at the genetic level, Richard Dawkins gives the example of the mutant t gene often found in lab mice which despite it's debilitating effects is favored during meiosis and hence rips though entire mouse populations like 'wildfire'. It's in chapter 13 'the long reach of the gene' in 'The Selfish Gene'

...If all the genes for a specific survival features are packaged more neatly in one organism over another the traits well tend to be passed on in their complete/working form more often in the former.

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10-07-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 01:17 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 12:47 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But your analogy implies that what is being acted upon is the genetic code itself. And it isn't. Selection doesn't work at the genetic level, the genotype takes a ride with the phenotype.

Selection does occur at the genetic level, Richard Dawkins gives the example of the T-Gene in mice which despite it's debilitating effects is favored during meiosis and hence rips though entire mouse populations like 'wildfire'.

Still seems like there is an advantage at the level that the gene is expressed, and therefore selection would be at the phenotypic level.

In any event, it isn't quite the same as selecting a specific gene sequence via natural selection, sexual selection, or climatic change.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-07-2013, 08:45 PM
Questions about evolution?
So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.
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10-07-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.

There tons of examples of parallel evolution of similar features. The eye is one such example. Off the top of my head even, mantees, jesus lizards and ducks all have webbed feet for pushing water and all come from very different lineages.

Genes undoubtedly influence behavior, how else do you account for the plethora of insects and fish and birds and reptiles that aren't raised by their parents but manage to do all the complex things they do with their brains/nervous systems? Do we have higher intellect? Of course, but even that is the products of our genes.

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10-07-2013, 10:16 PM
Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 09:15 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.

There tons of examples of parallel evolution of similar features. The eye is one such example. Off the top of my head even, mantees, jesus lizards and ducks all have webbed feet for pushing water and all come from very different lineages.

Genes undoubtedly influence behavior, how else do you account for the plethora of insects and fish and birds and reptiles that aren't raised by their parents but manage to do all the complex things they do with their brains/nervous systems? Do we have higher intellect? Of course, but even that is the products of our genes.


How many geneticists have you read that state that genes have any kind of deciding factor on behavior of a species?
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11-07-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
I&I, another post structure suggestion:
* If you have a point you would like to make, make it and provide (or be ready to provide) appropriate sources
* If you have a question to ask, ask it and see whether any response you get are enlightening to you
Currently you seem to be asking questions only so that you can make points in a way that you think don't need to be substantiated. This is a thread in which the participants are exchanging information about a particular field of science. If you have something constructive to add I'm sure we'd all welcome your input. If you would prefer stray onto different topics I'm sure you'd be welcome to start a thread on your pet topic.

Noone was talking about the genetic basis for language - evolution of language over time was being used as an analogy to evolution of the genome of a species over time. The genetic basis for language and behaviour are interesting topics that I'm sure could warrant a separate thread, but in this thread I'm much more interested in knowing whether Derek feels like he understands better the aspect of evolutionary theory he's having difficulty with. I wouldn't like to make him feel that the thread has run too far away from his OP and that it's no longer a useful forum to ask further clarifying questions or to make substantive new points.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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11-07-2013, 06:20 AM
Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 05:32 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I&I, another post structure suggestion:
* If you have a point you would like to make, make it and provide (or be ready to provide) appropriate sources
* If you have a question to ask, ask it and see whether any response you get are enlightening to you
Currently you seem to be asking questions only so that you can make points in a way that you think don't need to be substantiated. This is a thread in which the participants are exchanging information about a particular field of science. If you have something constructive to add I'm sure we'd all welcome your input. If you would prefer stray onto different topics I'm sure you'd be welcome to start a thread on your pet topic.

Noone was talking about the genetic basis for language - evolution of language over time was being used as an analogy to evolution of the genome of a species over time. The genetic basis for language and behaviour are interesting topics that I'm sure could warrant a separate thread, but in this thread I'm much more interested in knowing whether Derek feels like he understands better the aspect of evolutionary theory he's having difficulty with. I wouldn't like to make him feel that the thread has run too far away from his OP and that it's no longer a useful forum to ask further clarifying questions or to make substantive new points.

Did you notice that the thread for the last 2 pages was turning into a genetics based debate, before I got in on that issue.

Here is a suggestion for you, read before a post and see if a post is relative to the discussion currently going in.
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11-07-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 10:16 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 09:15 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  There tons of examples of parallel evolution of similar features. The eye is one such example. Off the top of my head even, mantees, jesus lizards and ducks all have webbed feet for pushing water and all come from very different lineages.

Genes undoubtedly influence behavior, how else do you account for the plethora of insects and fish and birds and reptiles that aren't raised by their parents but manage to do all the complex things they do with their brains/nervous systems? Do we have higher intellect? Of course, but even that is the products of our genes.


How many geneticists have you read that state that genes have any kind of deciding factor on behavior of a species?

There is a whole freaking field I and I. It's called 'behavioral genetics,' I'm not going to write a bibliography for my posts, just go a read a book.

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11-07-2013, 08:01 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.

sigh...this is why I should have just never even bothered...

You have a keyboard in front of you. Look down at it. See those keys? You have adapted your fingers to mashing them and you have adapted language to making posts that are fucking retarded.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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