[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
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11-07-2013, 08:26 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(10-07-2013 08:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.
Since we all know that you have an agenda in this thread, either be upfront about it or as others have suggested start another thread with that topic specifically since you are derailing this thread.

As for your x environment caused x adaption, I am no biologist and certainly no expert at all in the topics here but I seem to recall the example of a certain light colored moth (in the UK perhaps or maybe it was New England) whose color changed to adapt to the darkening of the bark of a tree it frequently alighted upon due to coal air pollution. I'll let the experts correct me if I am wrong.
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11-07-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 08:26 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Since we all know that you have an agenda in this thread, either be upfront about it or as others have suggested start another thread with that topic specifically since you are derailing this thread.

We know what his agenda is, it's two-fold:

1. Strict dichotomization of nature vs. nurture.
2. His philosophy > contemporary science.

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11-07-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 08:26 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  So if evolution is all about adjusting to environment then there should be ways to prove this.

You can't say organisms adjust or adapt according to its environment and not have any specific examples of this like x environment caused x adaptation.

As far as genes go, there are armchair scientists who like to imagine that genes have a leading/commanding/deciding role in behavior. But they don't, which is why there is no geneticist has ever made such a claim.
Since we all know that you have an agenda in this thread, either be upfront about it or as others have suggested start another thread with that topic specifically since you are derailing this thread.

As for your x environment caused x adaption, I am no biologist and certainly no expert at all in the topics here but I seem to recall the example of a certain light colored moth (in the UK perhaps or maybe it was New England) whose color changed to adapt to the darkening of the bark of a tree it frequently alighted upon due to coal air pollution. I'll let the experts correct me if I am wrong.

The moth you speak of is called the Peppered Moth. It's an excellent example of creatures evolving to suit their rapidly changing habitat, and of the force of Natural Selection.
To put it simply; the Peppered moths often rested on trees, which were of light colour, allowing the lighter Moths to camouflage and survive, while the darker Moths were killed off due to predation.
Enter the Industrial Revolution of England: soot from factories polluted vast regions, often coating the trees with soot. This rapid change in the environment saw two drastic changes: The light-coloured Peppered Moths were now suffering mass extermination at the hands of insectivorous birds, as they no longer blended in with the trees on which they rested; The inverse was true for the darker-coloured Moths, they thrived in the new environment.

It must be noted that individual creatures do not adapt to environmental changes so much as it must be said that the species itself adapts. In this instance, Moths which were genetically pre-disposed to darker colours (due to mutations) would often be exterminated by the predators from which they could not hide before they could pass their mutations along; this kept the numbers of Dark Peppered Moths down. When the I.D. came into affect, the dark, now camouflaged black/dark Moths now were able to pass their genes and colour-altering mutations. As a result of this, there are now two types of Peppered Moths; Biston betularia f. typica, the lightly-coloured moths, and Biston betularia f. carbonaria, the dark coloured moths.

Point being: the environmental change can affect the selective pressures in any given system, which allow for a species to adapt to the environmental change by seizing on already existing mutations which would prove useful causing survival of the mutations bearers to increase and thus the passing-on of mutated genes further down generations.... Or be wiped out. Sometimes both.


I'd also like to say that, while I cannot find it, I do recall reading several reports that, as the pollution was finally dying off, the Black moths were declining and the Whites increasing once again.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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11-07-2013, 09:42 AM
Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 08:39 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 08:26 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Since we all know that you have an agenda in this thread, either be upfront about it or as others have suggested start another thread with that topic specifically since you are derailing this thread.

We know what his agenda is, it's two-fold:

1. Strict dichotomization of nature vs. nurture.
2. His philosophy > contemporary science.

My agenda in this thread is:

1. evolution is not provable because causation as in x environment causes x behavior is next to impossible to prove even on a small scale.

2. Genes do not make any human predetermined when it comes to behavior, hence making the evolution of humans along the Darwinian model more difficult to prove.

So far evolution has only proven to have a lot fewer holes than the creation story.
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11-07-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 09:42 AM)I and I Wrote:  1. evolution is not provable ...

Buddy, you just went full retard.

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11-07-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
Nothing outside of mathematics is provable. Only demonstrable. And evolution is demonstrable. Jesus H. Christ!

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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11-07-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 09:42 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 08:39 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  We know what his agenda is, it's two-fold:

1. Strict dichotomization of nature vs. nurture.
2. His philosophy > contemporary science.

My agenda in this thread is:

1. evolution is not provable because causation as in x environment causes x behavior is next to impossible to prove even on a small scale.

2. Genes do not make any human predetermined when it comes to behavior, hence making the evolution of humans along the Darwinian model more difficult to prove.

So far evolution has only proven to have a lot fewer holes than the creation story.

I think I'm starting to get it... I and I is communicating with us from a bizzarro universe where every statement made on TTA is inverted.

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11-07-2013, 10:50 AM
Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 09:48 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 09:42 AM)I and I Wrote:  1. evolution is not provable ...

Buddy, you just went full retard.

And how would one go about knowing and proving all of the external factors in x environment AND prove that these external factors are the cause of x behavior or physical change?
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11-07-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 10:50 AM)I and I Wrote:  And how would one go about knowing and proving all of the external factors in x environment AND prove that these external factors are the cause of x behavior or physical change?

Conveniently enough, one doesn't have to. Furthermore, external factors don't cause changes. I was joking, but apparently you have an understanding of evolution on par with most creationists.

Evolution is a consequence of three factors.

Heridity exists.
Variation between individuals exists.
Some individuals are more likely to reproduce than others.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

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11-07-2013, 12:05 PM
Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 11:03 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 10:50 AM)I and I Wrote:  And how would one go about knowing and proving all of the external factors in x environment AND prove that these external factors are the cause of x behavior or physical change?

Conveniently enough, one doesn't have to. Furthermore, external factors don't cause changes. I was joking, but apparently you have an understanding of evolution on par with most creationists.

Evolution is a consequence of three factors.

Heridity exists.
Variation between individuals exists.
Some individuals are more likely to reproduce than others.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

I am asking questions and asking how evidence is learned when it comes to environments in the past and causal relationships. Not very creation like.
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