[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
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11-07-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
Thanks to Free Thought for the details on the Peppered Moth. I & I any comment on that species and the impact of the Industrial Revolution or have you latched on to something else?

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11-07-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 01:50 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Thanks to Free Thought for the details on the Peppered Moth. I & I any comment on that species and the impact of the Industrial Revolution or have you latched on to something else?

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My pleasure, Devilsadvoc8. I may not be very useful or insightful on this forum, but if I have an opportunity to science, I science well!

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11-07-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 10:50 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 09:48 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Buddy, you just went full retard.

And how would one go about knowing and proving all of the external factors in x environment AND prove that these external factors are the cause of x behavior or physical change?

You clearly do not understand evolution. Your statements are simply wrong.

Changes in the environment change selection - they do not cause changes to organisms. As an example, if the peppered moth had not had alleles for darker color, they would likely have gone extinct when the environment changed. The new environment changed what was selected - it did not cause mutation.

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11-07-2013, 11:08 PM
Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 05:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 10:50 AM)I and I Wrote:  And how would one go about knowing and proving all of the external factors in x environment AND prove that these external factors are the cause of x behavior or physical change?

You clearly do not understand evolution. Your statements are simply wrong.

Changes in the environment change selection - they do not cause changes to organisms. As an example, if the peppered moth had not had alleles for darker color, they would likely have gone extinct when the environment changed. The new environment changed what was selected - it did not cause mutation.

You clearly don't understand what I am asking.

You are the master at semantics " what was selected". Let's roll with that wording, the problems remain.

1. Proving causation

2. Being able to know every possible influence and to what degree of influence.

Both are next to impossible to prove.

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12-07-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(11-07-2013 11:08 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 05:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  You clearly do not understand evolution. Your statements are simply wrong.

Changes in the environment change selection - they do not cause changes to organisms. As an example, if the peppered moth had not had alleles for darker color, they would likely have gone extinct when the environment changed. The new environment changed what was selected - it did not cause mutation.

You clearly don't understand what I am asking.

You are the master at semantics " what was selected". Let's roll with that wording, the problems remain.

1. Proving causation

2. Being able to know every possible influence and to what degree of influence.

Both are next to impossible to prove.

You can call it a tampon next if you want.

I responded to the quoted statement which shows your misunderstanding of the mechanism evolution.
You first need to understand it before you can critique it. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2013, 06:21 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
Given I & I's lack of response regarding the peppered moth, it appears that a new shiny object has caught their "I".
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12-07-2013, 07:42 AM
Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 05:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-07-2013 11:08 PM)I and I Wrote:  You clearly don't understand what I am asking.

You are the master at semantics " what was selected". Let's roll with that wording, the problems remain.

1. Proving causation

2. Being able to know every possible influence and to what degree of influence.

Both are next to impossible to prove.

You can call it a tampon next if you want.

I responded to the quoted statement which shows your misunderstanding of the mechanism evolution.
You first need to understand it before you can critique it. Drinking Beverage

Oh, when did you show that causation is verifiable?

And where did you show that knowing every influential aspect upon a species is even possible to even start explaining causation?

Oh that's right, you still fucking haven't.
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12-07-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
I&I perhaps you could explain what you understand of evolution, what you accept and what you don't accept. You seem to be arguing that DNA is not a basis of similarity between the shape and behaviour of related individuals, but you have not stated any clear position. Asking questions without being interested in the answers and without ever stating your own view is not a particularly interesting way to carry on a thread. Are you simply arguing that nature and nurture are both involved in determining the behaviour of an individual, or are you trying to argue something metaphysical and transcendental here?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-07-2013, 09:03 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 07:42 AM)I and I Wrote:  Oh, when did you show that causation is verifiable?

Oh, so this is just you and your sophomoric epistemology again.

Perhaps some day you'll realize it's still possible to make conclusions from inevitably imperfect knowledge.

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12-07-2013, 11:10 AM
Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 08:56 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I&I perhaps you could explain what you understand of evolution, what you accept and what you don't accept. You seem to be arguing that DNA is not a basis of similarity between the shape and behaviour of related individuals, but you have not stated any clear position. Asking questions without being interested in the answers and without ever stating your own view is not a particularly interesting way to carry on a thread. Are you simply arguing that nature and nurture are both involved in determining the behaviour of an individual, or are you trying to argue something metaphysical and transcendental here?

I am arguing something more along the lines of phenomenology if you want to get to what I am arguing for philosophically, similar to transcendental but not quite(from the human perspective of course)

Formulating a hypothesis that x causes x can only be done with a human mind, so what one puts in a causal sequence is not necessarily a correct sequence, there probably is no correct sequence. Example: I would say the U.S. caused the Cold War, others would be different.

To say x environment caused x changes in a species is hard to prove on a causal basis alone especially of one is doing this from many years later with less details about what the environment was like. According to evolution sometimes changes happen in DNA for no reason at all hence this making it difficult to fully account for a causal chain of events.

Side note: human evolution would have to be in a different category of evolution since our minds influence the way we organize societies thus adding a factor to our evolution that other animals don't have.
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