[split] Questions about evolution? - I&I questioning evolution
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12-07-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  Formulating a hypothesis that x causes x can only be done with a human mind, so what one puts in a causal sequence is not necessarily a correct sequence, there probably is no correct sequence.

Misunderstanding of thermodynamics.

Also the non-existence of absolute knowledge does not preclude there being better and worse explanations.

(12-07-2013 11:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  According to evolution sometimes changes happen in DNA for no reason at all hence this making it difficult to fully account for a causal chain of events.

Misunderstanding of evolution and genetics.

(12-07-2013 11:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  Side note: human evolution would have to be in a different category of evolution since our minds influence the way we organize societies thus adding a factor to our evolution that other animals don't have.

Yes. Selection in humans is as much behavioural as anything. This is genetic only insofar as behaviour is genetic. So what?

And it's not like great apes don't have societies...

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12-07-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 08:56 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I&I perhaps you could explain what you understand of evolution, what you accept and what you don't accept. You seem to be arguing that DNA is not a basis of similarity between the shape and behaviour of related individuals, but you have not stated any clear position. Asking questions without being interested in the answers and without ever stating your own view is not a particularly interesting way to carry on a thread. Are you simply arguing that nature and nurture are both involved in determining the behaviour of an individual, or are you trying to argue something metaphysical and transcendental here?

I am arguing something more along the lines of phenomenology if you want to get to what I am arguing for philosophically, similar to transcendental but not quite(from the human perspective of course)

Formulating a hypothesis that x causes x can only be done with a human mind, so what one puts in a causal sequence is not necessarily a correct sequence, there probably is no correct sequence. Example: I would say the U.S. caused the Cold War, others would be different.

To say x environment caused x changes in a species is hard to prove on a causal basis alone especially of one is doing this from many years later with less details about what the environment was like. According to evolution sometimes changes happen in DNA for no reason at all hence this making it difficult to fully account for a causal chain of events.

Side note: human evolution would have to be in a different category of evolution since our minds influence the way we organize societies thus adding a factor to our evolution that other animals don't have.

The environment doesn't cause changes, the environment is the selection agent. All changes in DNA happen for no reason at all - they are mutations. The results survive or don't.

Human evolution includes social evolution, the evolution if ideas and knowledge, so it is different from most organisms. But it is not entirely unique, just 'more'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
So your Phenomenolgy (I admit I had to look it up) is the study of the subjective. Just because something is complex does not mean its workings are subjective. The fact that human beings have a degree of social interaction that influences selection does not make it unique or a special case. As noted apes and other mammals (Cetacea for example) have social groups. I would suggest that ocean currents do not directly impact many species. That doesn't mean that those that are impacted by currents are a special case.

Honestly, I think you are using a fancy concept to disguise your true intent which is to hold certain processes (evolution) to standards you would not apply to others.
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12-07-2013, 11:51 AM
Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 11:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  I am arguing something more along the lines of phenomenology if you want to get to what I am arguing for philosophically, similar to transcendental but not quite(from the human perspective of course)

Formulating a hypothesis that x causes x can only be done with a human mind, so what one puts in a causal sequence is not necessarily a correct sequence, there probably is no correct sequence. Example: I would say the U.S. caused the Cold War, others would be different.

To say x environment caused x changes in a species is hard to prove on a causal basis alone especially of one is doing this from many years later with less details about what the environment was like. According to evolution sometimes changes happen in DNA for no reason at all hence this making it difficult to fully account for a causal chain of events.

Side note: human evolution would have to be in a different category of evolution since our minds influence the way we organize societies thus adding a factor to our evolution that other animals don't have.

The environment doesn't cause changes, the environment is the selection agent. All changes in DNA happen for no reason at all - they are mutations. The results survive or don't.

Human evolution includes social evolution, the evolution if ideas and knowledge, so it is different from most organisms. But it is not entirely unique, just 'more'.

The human mind and its role in human evolution is unique among other living things. What we humans label a selecting agent or don't label a selecting agent is determined by human minds and the way we agree or disagree is the best sequential order of events.
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12-07-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 11:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  The environment doesn't cause changes, the environment is the selection agent. All changes in DNA happen for no reason at all - they are mutations. The results survive or don't.

Human evolution includes social evolution, the evolution if ideas and knowledge, so it is different from most organisms. But it is not entirely unique, just 'more'.

The human mind and its role in human evolution is unique among other living things. What we humans label a selecting agent or don't label a selecting agent is determined by human minds and the way we agree or disagree is the best sequential order of events.

You have insufficient information to make the "unique" claim. You have no clue what other life forms may exist.
What you label or do not label something has no bearing on whether or not, in fact, it's a selecting agent.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-07-2013, 11:57 AM
Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:39 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  So your Phenomenolgy (I admit I had to look it up) is the study of the subjective. Just because something is complex does not mean its workings are subjective. The fact that human beings have a degree of social interaction that influences selection does not make it unique or a special case. As noted apes and other mammals (Cetacea for example) have social groups. I would suggest that ocean currents do not directly impact many species. That doesn't mean that those that are impacted by currents are a special case.

Honestly, I think you are using a fancy concept to disguise your true intent which is to hold certain processes (evolution) to standards you would not apply to others.

Phenomenology is the study of experience, which as far as we can possibly know is purely a human trait. Experience can't be reduced to sequencing past events. The experience of being an early human can't be reduced to whatever remains we find. The fact that humans have a mind makes its evolution very different from other species evolution. Experience is technically metaphysical since experience is not reducable to physical matter or memory either.
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12-07-2013, 11:59 AM
Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 11:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  The human mind and its role in human evolution is unique among other living things. What we humans label a selecting agent or don't label a selecting agent is determined by human minds and the way we agree or disagree is the best sequential order of events.

You have insufficient information to make the "unique" claim. You have no clue what other life forms may exist.
What you label or do not label something has no bearing on whether or not, in fact, it's a selecting agent.

And you have ways of determining direct affects of a selecting agent. Is this selecting agent your god?
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12-07-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 11:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You have insufficient information to make the "unique" claim. You have no clue what other life forms may exist.
What you label or do not label something has no bearing on whether or not, in fact, it's a selecting agent.

And you have ways of determining direct affects of a selecting agent. Is this selecting agent your god?

There are ways of determining direct affects of a selecting agent.
Many organisms change their environments all the time.
Some of the changes have direct selecting affects, some none, and some unintentional.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-07-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 11:57 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(12-07-2013 11:39 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  So your Phenomenolgy (I admit I had to look it up) is the study of the subjective. Just because something is complex does not mean its workings are subjective. The fact that human beings have a degree of social interaction that influences selection does not make it unique or a special case. As noted apes and other mammals (Cetacea for example) have social groups. I would suggest that ocean currents do not directly impact many species. That doesn't mean that those that are impacted by currents are a special case.

Honestly, I think you are using a fancy concept to disguise your true intent which is to hold certain processes (evolution) to standards you would not apply to others.

Phenomenology is the study of experience, which as far as we can possibly know is purely a human trait. Experience can't be reduced to sequencing past events. The experience of being an early human can't be reduced to whatever remains we find. The fact that humans have a mind makes its evolution very different from other species evolution. Experience is technically metaphysical since experience is not reducable to physical matter or memory either.

What part of that is purely human? The study of experience? If so, so what?

Other animals experience events and learn from them.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Questions about evolution?
(12-07-2013 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  What part of that is purely human? The study of experience? If so, so what?

Other animals experience events and learn from them.

We can be even more specific.

Anatomically modern humans are not the only human species to have existed, nor, surely, the only human species with 'minds', nor were they possessed of a significantly greater 'mind' than their cousins during the time when multiple human species existed. To say no other species possesses a human mind is indeed absolutely true. It is also tautological and utterly useless.

But, uh, if one chooses ignoring evolution and wallow instead in a septic tank of solipsism, then, I guess you don't have to account for that...

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