[split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-06-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, another look
(27-06-2013 07:41 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The precession is not something that can be dated to an exact year. The full cycle takes 25000 years. Therefore the motion in one year is 360/25000 degrees. Even if the zodiac signs were exactly defined (they're not, and certainly weren't back then), and it was somehow possible to tell exactly where one's region ended and another's started (possible with computers, though it certainly wasn't back then), the change in the sun's position in each year is still only ~1 arcsecond.

Human vision can distinguish one arc-minute. Therefore - being VERY generous, since Aries/Pisces is one of the hardest to judge 'boundaries' - unaided human observation of the transition would be no more precise than plus or minus thirty or forty years. At best the ancients could date the shift to within a century or two. The very wiki article you linked to gives dates from 1 to 500 AD.


One degree of precession is 72 years.

This is why Jesus had 72 disciples (as well as the usual 12 - who were signs of the zodiac).

And, after these things, the Lord appointed seventy two others, and sent them forth, two and two before his face, into every city and place whither, he himself, was about to come. Luke 10:1

(You will find some Bibles say 70, but this is a deliberate mistranslation. The quote here is from the Rotherham, which is quite literal, and it says 72.)

As Adam Clarke says:
Several MSS. and versions have seventy-two. Sometimes the Jews chose six out of each tribe: this was the number of the great Sanhedrin.



If a human can see one arc-second, then this is 1.2 years. So precession can be quite accurate as a dating tool for history.**

But you are right that it is difficult to see a precise boundary between the constellations, and this was the reason behind much of the friction and wars in ancient times.

The Hyksos, for instance, the Shepherd Kings, were also obviously following the new Great Month of Aries (c. 1800 BC). And it is my suggestion that this friction between the Apis-bull worshippers (Taurus) Shepherd Kings (Aries) and the caused the great dispute, civil war, and great Exodus of the Hyksos Shepherd people.

We have the same story in the Old Testament, with the Patriarchs being Shepherds (Aries), and Moses murdering 3,000 Apis-bull worshippers (Taurus). Again, this friction caused another great Exodus. (Actually, these 'two' Exoduses were one and the same.)

And we have the same in the epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was armed with an axe or club, with a bow and with a sword from his belt. Quite obviously, Gilgamesh is Orion. Gilgamesh wanted to kill the Bull of Heaven (Taurus) but before doing so he had to kill the seven splendours of the Hubaba that guarded the neck of the Bull of Heaven. Quite obviously the Humbaba is the Pleiades, who do indeed guard the neck of Taurus. Killing the Bull of Heaven (Taurus) is the act that will transition from the precessional Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries. In other words, Gilgamesh was written in 1800 BC. Thus precession IS a useful dating tool.




Back in the 1st century, it should have been pretty obvious by the AD 40s that Aries had turned to Pisces, and anyone who had not seen that fact was obviously not following the right religion. This was one of the primary reasons for the Jewish Revolt (the Nazarene Revolt).

The Jews (Nazarene) had been looking for a Messiah - a new king of the New Age, the new Great Month of Pisces (that lasts for 2,140 years). Momentous things were supposed to happen at the beginning of a New Age - when a new Great King was to be born (as in the Epic of Gilgamesh in the previous Great Month). This was the return and regeneration of the Phoenix and all that. (Remember that as a prince of Edessa, Jesus also came from Phoenix - i.e.: Palmyra.)

That momentous event (the precessional change of the zodiac) was called the Star Prophesy - the great oracle of the 1st century that said a Great King would be a star from the East. And who was born under the Eastern Star? The gospels give the answer. But it was Emperor Vespasian who stole the Star Prophesy and used it to become emperor. All of which kinda links the Nativity event with the AD 70s and the reign of Vespasian.


Face facts, these were real events in the life and times of 1st century Roman politics, and since Vespasian won this battle the real historical life of J.C. was airbrushed out of history, and replaced with a fictional story that has suckered the gullible for two millennia.

The gospels are real-life Roman history - covered in a thick layer of fairy-dust. But, amazing as it may seem, there are some people out there who choose to believe the fairy-dust, rather than the true history underneath it.


.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, another look
(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  One degree of precession is 72 years.

This is why Jesus had 72 disciples (as well as the usual 12 - who were signs of the zodiac).

And, after these things, the Lord appointed seventy two others, and sent them forth, two and two before his face, into every city and place whither, he himself, was about to come. Luke 10:1

(You will find some Bibles say 70, but this is a deliberate mistranslation. The quote here is from the Rotherham, which is quite literal, and it says 72.)

As Adam Clarke says:
Several MSS. and versions have seventy-two. Sometimes the Jews chose six out of each tribe: this was the number of the great Sanhedrin.



If a human can see one arc-second, then this is 1.2 years. So precession can be quite accurate as a dating tool for history.**

But you are right that it is difficult to see a precise boundary between the constellations, and this was the reason behind much of the friction and wars in ancient times.

The Hyksos, for instance, the Shepherd Kings, were also obviously following the new Great Month of Aries (c. 1800 BC). And it is my suggestion that this friction between the Apis-bull worshippers (Taurus) Shepherd Kings (Aries) and the caused the great dispute, civil war, and great Exodus of the Hyksos Shepherd people.

We have the same story in the Old Testament, with the Patriarchs being Shepherds (Aries), and Moses murdering 3,000 Apis-bull worshippers (Taurus). Again, this friction caused another great Exodus. (Actually, these 'two' Exoduses were one and the same.)

And we have the same in the epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was armed with an axe or club, with a bow and with a sword from his belt. Quite obviously, Gilgamesh is Orion. Gilgamesh wanted to kill the Bull of Heaven (Taurus) but before doing so he had to kill the seven splendours of the Hubaba that guarded the neck of the Bull of Heaven. Quite obviously the Humbaba is the Pleiades, who do indeed guard the neck of Taurus. Killing the Bull of Heaven (Taurus) is the act that will transition from the precessional Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries. In other words, Gilgamesh was written in 1800 BC. Thus precession IS a useful dating tool.




Back in the 1st century, it should have been pretty obvious by the AD 40s that Aries had turned to Pisces, and anyone who had not seen that fact was obviously not following the right religion. This was one of the primary reasons for the Jewish Revolt (the Nazarene Revolt).

The Jews (Nazarene) had been looking for a Messiah - a new king of the New Age, the new Great Month of Pisces (that lasts for 2,140 years). Momentous things were supposed to happen at the beginning of a New Age - when a new Great King was to be born (as in the Epic of Gilgamesh in the previous Great Month). This was the return and regeneration of the Phoenix and all that. (Remember that as a prince of Edessa, Jesus also came from Phoenix - i.e.: Palmyra.)

That momentous event (the precessional change of the zodiac) was called the Star Prophesy - the great oracle of the 1st century that said a Great King would be a star from the East. And who was born under the Eastern Star? The gospels give the answer. But it was Emperor Vespasian who stole the Star Prophesy and used it to become emperor. All of which kinda links the Nativity event with the AD 70s and the reign of Vespasian.


Face facts, these were real events in the life and times of 1st century Roman politics, and since Vespasian won this battle the real historical life of J.C. was airbrushed out of history, and replaced with a fictional story that has suckered the gullible for two millennia.

The gospels are real-life Roman history - covered in a thick layer of fairy-dust. But, amazing as it may seem, there are some people out there who choose to believe the fairy-dust, rather than the true history underneath it.

This is uncritical and incredibly uninformed parallelomania and absolutely nothing more. Gilgamesh is obviously Orion? Good grief.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 09:55 AM
RE: Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, another look
(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  One degree of precession is 72 years.

Yes.

Roughly (ie, rounded to the nearest 'year' - where the difference between tropical and sidereal years is in fact why the phenomenon arises).

(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  If a human can see one arc-second, then this is 1.2 years. So precession can be quite accurate as a dating tool for history.**

No.

The eye can see about 1 arc-minute without magnification.

(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  But you are right that it is difficult to see a precise boundary between the constellations...

Yes.

The asterisms are wildly different in size, and not even all that close to the ecliptic much of the time.

(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Back in the 1st century, it should have been pretty obvious by the AD 40s that Aries had turned to Pisces, and anyone who had not seen that fact was obviously not following the right religion.

No.

It wouldn't have been. Aries is a dinky little thing nestled right up against sprawling Pisces. Dividing the circle of the ecliptic into twelve arbitrary and equal sections (which kind of match the original asterisms) is a later practice. The best ancient astronomy could do is within centuries. Not decades, and certainly not years.

Attempting to date the 'transition' between Taurus and Aries is even harder, given that there is a very large gap between the two.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 09:56 AM
RE: Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, another look
(27-06-2013 09:35 AM)maklelan Wrote:  This is uncritical and incredibly uninformed parallelomania and absolutely nothing more. Gilgamesh is obviously Orion? Good grief.

It was very hard to restrict my comments strictly to astronomical matters, believe me.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 04:53 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 03:33 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  As Josephus admits, his grasp of Greek was poor,

What on earth? You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.


Not the foggiest idea?

As is usual, Maklelan, it is you who has no idea what he is talking about. Have you ever read Josephus? I am beginning to think your understanding of Josephus is as poor as your understanding of Precessional Astronomy-Astrology.

In reality, Josephus himself says:
Quote:
Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study .... but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language. However, some persons there were who desired to know our history, and so exhorted me to go on with it; and, above all the rest, Epaphroditus, a man who is a lover of all kind of learning. Antiquities Preface 2.

As Josephus admits, he was unaccustomed to Greek and found the translation tiresome.

Josephus also relates that his assistant and 'publisher' was one Epaphroditus.
And you might also recall that the 'publisher' of the gospels was also Epaphroditus.
And that is NOT a coincidence.


Why don't you admit it, Maklelan, just like your understanding of Syriac history, your understanding of Josephus is threadbare bordering on nonexistent.


.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(27-06-2013 09:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-06-2013 09:21 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Back in the 1st century, it should have been pretty obvious by the AD 40s that Aries had turned to Pisces, and anyone who had not seen that fact was obviously not following the right religion.

No.

It wouldn't have been. Aries is a dinky little thing nestled right up against sprawling Pisces. Dividing the circle of the ecliptic into twelve arbitrary and equal sections (which kind of match the original asterisms) is a later practice. The best ancient astronomy could do is within centuries. Not decades, and certainly not years.

Have you ever looked at the night sky? There is a sharp transition between Aries and Pisces that makes the transition easy to monitor.

By AD 10, the Sun is almost on top of Pisces (at the vernal equinox). It would have been obvious to any astronomer that Pisces was dominant by then, and the Age of Pisces (the Age of the Fisher Kings) had begun. Take a look at this planisphere screen-grab for AD 10, March 23rd (Sun on the vernal point).



Sun sitting on Pisces, in AD 10.


   


.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 05:32 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Have you ever looked at the night sky?

Nope. Never.

(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  There is a sharp transition between Aries and Pisces that makes the transition easy to monitor.

Look at the image you posted. There is an arbitrary dotted line between the two. Have you looked at the night sky? 'Cause that line's not really there...

(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  By AD 10, the Sun is almost on top of Pisces (at the vernal equinox).

Yes.

(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  It would have been obvious to any astronomer that Pisces was dominant by then ...

And that very image shows that the point at which the equinox is closer to the pisces asterism than the aries asterism was several degrees prior to that. As in, several 71.6 year intervals prior to that. As in, by then it had been closer to pisces than aries by several centuries...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
27-06-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Not the foggiest idea?

Not the foggiest.

(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  As is usual, Maklelan, it is you who has no idea what he is talking about. Have you ever read Josephus?

I have read every word of it, and most of it in Greek. It figured heavily in my coursework at Oxford.

(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  I am beginning to think your understanding of Josephus is as poor as your understanding of Precessional Astronomy-Astrology.

In reality, Josephus himself says:
Quote:
Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study .... but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language.

Yes, "to us" does not mean "me personally," but "to the Jews." He's referring to the general lack of familiarity with Greek among the Jews in Syria-Palestine.

(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  However, some persons there were who desired to know our history, and so exhorted me to go on with it; and, above all the rest, Epaphroditus, a man who is a lover of all kind of learning. Antiquities Preface 2.

As Josephus admits, he was unaccustomed to Greek and found the translation tiresome.

You actually think people who don't know a language are the ones communities go to to exhort to translate the Hebrew Bible into that language? Have you ever translated the Hebrew Bible? Of course not. You don't know what translation is like. I am a scripture translation supervisor right now, Ralph, and I have some groundbreaking information for you: translating the Hebrew Bible, no matter how familiar you are with the language, is TIRESOME. Your logic is absolutely and utterly ridiculous.

(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Josephus also relates that his assistant and 'publisher' was one Epaphroditus.
And you might also recall that the 'publisher' of the gospels was also Epaphroditus.
And that is NOT a coincidence.

It's not? By all means, prove that it is not a coincidence, since it was an incredibly common name in Greek and Latin, derived from the word for "lovely." It appears in both the long form and in the shorter Epaphras. Numerous different texts attest to numerous different figures carrying that name dating from the last centuries BCE to several centuries into the Common Era. Hopefully you don't mean that it's not a coincidence just because you say so.

(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Why don't you admit it, Maklelan, just like your understanding of Syriac history, your understanding of Josephus is threadbare bordering on nonexistent.

No. It's too much fun to see you fumble the most basic aspects of historiography and the onomastica.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(27-06-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 04:53 AM)maklelan Wrote:  What on earth? You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.


Not the foggiest idea?

As is usual, Maklelan, it is you who has no idea what he is talking about. Have you ever read Josephus? I am beginning to think your understanding of Josephus is as poor as your understanding of Precessional Astronomy-Astrology.

In reality, Josephus himself says:
Quote:
Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study .... but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language. However, some persons there were who desired to know our history, and so exhorted me to go on with it; and, above all the rest, Epaphroditus, a man who is a lover of all kind of learning. Antiquities Preface 2.

As Josephus admits, he was unaccustomed to Greek and found the translation tiresome.

Josephus also relates that his assistant and 'publisher' was one Epaphroditus.
And you might also recall that the 'publisher' of the gospels was also Epaphroditus.
And that is NOT a coincidence.


Why don't you admit it, Maklelan, just like your understanding of Syriac history, your understanding of Josephus is threadbare bordering on nonexistent.


.

Hi Ralph, could you provide the evidence that Epaphroditus was the gospels' and Josephus' publisher?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-06-2013, 09:36 PM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
Fucking Ralph. You should just shut your mouth, pull up your pants, and walk away.

(27-06-2013 05:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Have you ever looked at the night sky?

Nope. Never.

(27-06-2013 04:56 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  There is a sharp transition between Aries and Pisces that makes the transition easy to monitor.

Look at the image you posted. There is an arbitrary dotted line between the two. Have you looked at the night sky? 'Cause that line's not really there...

That was fucking hilarious. Thumbsup

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: