[split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
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24-06-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 10:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  This is the interesting bit. One man's whacked out crazy is another man's bread and butter "but of course it's like that"...

It makes me distrust M's thinking, but also... mine... a little bit. Not as much as it used to...

And then I think to myself, is it just that his thinking is so alien, that I think that it's obviously wrong ?

And *then* I think to myself... God talked to Joseph Smith through his hat Huh

I'm not here to be an apologist for Mormonism, I'm here to represent a sober academic perspective on stuff. The notion that religious beliefs of any kind are symptomatic of cognitive deficiencies is a rather uncritical and naive position. There's nothing to show that my membership in the LDS church has any bearing whatsoever on my ability to reason critically within my chosen profession.
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24-06-2013, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2013 11:12 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 04:40 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I'm a Latter-day Saint, more commonly known as a Mormon.


You see what I am up against:

A man who says I am totally wrong and Jesus could never ever have been a (secular) prince of Edessa.
But a man who believes that Josiah Smith translated 'reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs' from gold plates, and then lost them.

C'mon Maklelan, old sone, give us an example of 'reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs' I mean, you are so good at languages, so show us what they look like. And while you are at it, why don't you parse a hieroglyphic sentence. Ha, ha, ha, ROFL, ROFL. This is priceless - a Mormon trying to be rational. Geezzz, have you ever heard such an oxymoron?

Dear me, Makelan, if you cannot see you have been had by a shister and trickster (J Smith esq), there is absolutely no hope for you. Tel me how a bright, educated and intelligent person can fall for such a stupid story. It beggars belief that you should have been taken in - but I am truly interested in your answer to this. What makes an educated person believe wholeheartedly in such a tenuous story, that has obviously been fabricated for fame and profit. What is it about this story that makes it believable to you?

I think we are all interested, and would like to be enlightened.




Again, I should make it clear I am an Atheist - I am searching for the history of the NT and the NT family, not the spirituality.


.
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24-06-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
See what you two did? Volunteered to be in the same category as ol' Rocket Ralph, here. Tongue

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24-06-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  You see what I am up against:

A man who says I am totally wrong and Jesus could never ever have been a prince of Edessa.
But a man who believes that Josiah Smith translated 'reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs' from gold plates, and then lost them.

Joseph Smith, and your sentence above is a genetic fallacy called the association fallacy. My logic and my methods are unassailable. You've tried to poke holes in them, but you've done nothing but further betray your abject ignorance of this field. If you had anything legitimate to contribute in the way of evidence, it wouldn't really matter what I believe outside of my academic life, would it?

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  C'mon Maklelan, old sone, give us an example of 'reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs' I mean, you are so good at languages, so show us what they look like.

Yes, I get this from fundamentalist Christians screeching in the street all the time. Way to show just what calibre of thinker I'm going up against here.

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  And while you are at it, why don't you parse a hieroglyphic sentence.

Like what?

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Ha, ha, ha, ROFL, ROFL. This is priceless - a Mormon trying to be rational. Geezzz, have you ever heard such an oxymoron.

Now you're adding bigotry to your ignorance. You're not doing your position any favors.

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Dear me, Makelan, if you cannot see you have been had by a shister

Do you mean shyster?

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  and trickster (J Smith esq), there is absolutely no hope for you. Tel me how a bright, educated and intelligent person can fall for such a stupid story. It beggars belief that you should have been taken in - but I am truly interested in your answer to this. What makes an educated person believe wholeheartedly in such a tenuous story, that has obviously been fabricated for fame and profit. What is it about this story that makes it believable to you?

If I thought for a second that you had the capacity to be sincere here I would be happy to answer, but you're just replacing your hopeless attempts at academic debate with simple bigotry and personal insults, so obviously there's no reason to entertain you.

(24-06-2013 11:06 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  I think we are all interested, and would like to be enlightened.

No, you think you're among friends here and can capitalize on that. Your rhetoric is no more informed or sophisticated than your spelling or the artwork on your books.
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24-06-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I'm not here to be an apologist for Mormonism, I'm here to represent a sober academic perspective on stuff. The notion that religious beliefs of any kind are symptomatic of cognitive deficiencies is a rather uncritical and naive position. There's nothing to show that my membership in the LDS church has any bearing whatsoever on my ability to reason critically within my chosen profession.

So why do you believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence?

I have shown you evidence after evidence that Adiabene is Edessa, but you reject it as being circumstantial and unworthy of contemplation. But then Josiah Smith comes along with a wild, stupid and unsubstantiated story - for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever - and you believe every word. Why?

Geez, at least I have quotes from the Syriac historians and comparisons with Josephus and many others, that back up the claims I am making, plus the numismatic and other archaeological evidence. At least Edessa and its royal family are a historical reality. But you? You have nothing, nada, nicht, zippo. You have no evidence whatsoever, except for the say-so of a known charlatan, and you believe it.

I am dumbfounded. How you you rationalise your irrationality? How do you parse you lack of logic and lack of critical thinking? How do you live with such an internal dichotomy? I have seen this before, mostly in Islam, so I am familiar with those who deny their irrationality. But I have never had a good explanation as to how you deal with those irrationalities. How do you cope?

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24-06-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  So why do you believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence?

Oh, there's evidence. There's just nothing definitive.

(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  I have shown you evidence after evidence that Adiabene is Edessa, but you reject it as being circumstantial and unworthy of contemplation.

No, I reject it as being fallacious, uninformed, and selective.

(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  But then Josiah Smith

Joseph Smith.

(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  comes along with a wild, stupid and unsubstantiated story - for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever - and you believe every word. Why?

I don't believe every word. Again, do not make assumptions about my faith. You will always be wrong.

(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Geez, at least I have quotes from the Syriac historians and comparisons with Josephus and many others, that back up the claims I am making, plus the numismatic and other archaeological evidence.

No, what you have is wishful thinking and fallacy projected against actual evidence. You also have that Dunning-Kruger effect I told you about, and it's shining through right now.

(24-06-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  At least Edessa and its royal family are a historical reality. But you? You have nothing, nada, nicht, zippo. You have no evidence whatsoever, except for the say-so of a known charlatan, and you believe it.

I am dumbfounded. How you you rationalise your irrationality? How do you parse you lack of logic and lack of critical thinking? How do you live with such an internal dichotomy? I have seen this before, mostly in Islam, so I am familiar with those who deny their irrationality. But I have never had a good explanation as to how you deal with those irrationalities. How do you cope?

I don't have to cope, but I don't expect you to understand or to acknowledge the disparity between what I believe and what you project onto me. Obviously that fallacious and specious reasoning is the very backbone of your worldview.
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24-06-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
By the way, I'm still waiting for you to respond to my two concerns, this idiotic attempt at a smoke-screen notwithstanding.
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24-06-2013, 11:35 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I'm not here to be an apologist for Mormonism, I'm here to represent a sober academic perspective on stuff.

And you've certainly done so! I'm certainly impressed by your clear knowledge of the ancient near east.

(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  The notion that religious beliefs of any kind are symptomatic of cognitive deficiencies is a rather uncritical and naive position.

But there's the rub. Religous belief, in an intelligent person of no apparent cognitive deficiencies, is symptomatic of a rather uncritical and naive position.

(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  There's nothing to show that my membership in the LDS church has any bearing whatsoever on my ability to reason critically within my chosen profession.

I can almost agree fully with that. In my field, physics, there are many believers in all sorts of faiths who do great science regardless. I think it may be slightly harder to dissociate, when attempting a serious investigation into the history of events which themselves form the basis for many of those faiths. Trying to do so is admirable.

Mr Ellis has tried to argue against you instead of your positions. We can all see that, and we can all see that it's fallacious and dishonest.
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24-06-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
(24-06-2013 11:35 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I'm not here to be an apologist for Mormonism, I'm here to represent a sober academic perspective on stuff.

And you've certainly done so! I'm certainly impressed by your clear knowledge of the ancient near east.

(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  The notion that religious beliefs of any kind are symptomatic of cognitive deficiencies is a rather uncritical and naive position.

But there's the rub. Religous belief, in an intelligent person of no apparent cognitive deficiencies, is symptomatic of a rather uncritical and naive position.

(24-06-2013 11:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  There's nothing to show that my membership in the LDS church has any bearing whatsoever on my ability to reason critically within my chosen profession.

I can almost agree fully with that. In my field, physics, there are many believers in all sorts of faiths who do great science regardless. I think it may be slightly harder to dissociate, when attempting a serious investigation into the history of events which themselves form the basis for many of those faiths. Trying to do so is admirable.

Mr Ellis has tried to argue against you instead of your positions. We can all see that, and we can all see that it's fallacious and dishonest.

Totally agree with you on this. Meklelan's work here has made me question one of the tenants of my was Jesus real argument (not the main ones but part of it nonetheless) but his revelation as a Mormon does make me weigh his views a bit more harshly than I would if he was a nonbeliever. Not saying that he can't be right just that he must be displaying a severe cognitive dissonance between his academic work and his personal beliefs.

As to agreeing with Ralph, Cantor you know even a broken clock is right twice a day. Had he bothered to answer the actually criticisms made on his work and not gone straight into ad hominem attacks he might have had a point here. As it is however I think it is rather clear to any observer that of the two only one has shown to have a mastery over the subject and the other has built a very flimsy house of straw that can not stand up to even the most basic of examinations.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-06-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: [split] Resurrection of Jesus - Argument with Ralph Ellis
Yeah, I weighed his views more harshly for about two nanoseconds, until I processed what he actually said. You three need a row slap. Big Grin

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