[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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15-07-2013, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2013 05:16 PM by cheapthrillseaker.)
[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Allright.
All the previous posters here agree with your actions and have commended you for it.
While I must indeed applaud you for supporting someone through a time of need: this is still a forum. And, in it's very nature, is meant for discussion.
I feel the need to pose an opposing view.

Please remember that this is not meant personal, but general.

You wrote that you faced criticism. I picture this as coming from the same kind of people that criticize atheists for "turning to a highway to hell". And I commend you for withstanding that. Peer-pressure can be very strong.

I myself am against the practice of gendertransformation.
I believe that it is going too far.
We draw a very fine line when it comes to psychological (or psychiatrical, I am not a doctor so I will stick with the first) issues.
When someone things they can fly and they want to jump off of buildings, we don't rationalise the same way. They are not fitted with wings. (Delusional)
When someone thinks they should not have a right leg, arm or breast, we do not rationalise the same way and amputate that bodypart. (Body Dismorphic disorder).
When someone talks to "dead people" or sees things, anything from objects to "aura's", we do not perpetually analyse their eyes. (hallucinations).

Then why, when someone says they are a different gender, do we let them take dozens of surgeries and chemical/medicinal treatments to, in essence, put more time, money and effort into their bodies than is spent on the reconstruction of a sizeable house?

I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.

To your specific case: Your child had other symptoms as well. You wrote about hearing voices and paranoia and described those as being seperate and unrelated.
I am not a doctor, so feel free to completely ignore this sentence: but that sounds to me that there just might be a deeper root-cause. One might have led to the other.

Again: I do not condone the actions of your child individually.
I do not criticize you as parents. Your child was 18, a legal adult and took his (at the time) own choices.
I just believe that because medical science has allowed us to come so far as to be ABLE to do something, it doesn't mean that we SHOULD. We stop medical science in a great many ways, all of them less severe than this practice.

I would also like to know more about your and your husbands' thoughtprocess in the matter. From the moment that of the first conversation to, say, now.

@moderator-team: Please feel free to split this into a seperate topic if you believe it doesn't belong.

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15-07-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Thread split, as per suggested by Caveman.

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15-07-2013, 06:21 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
You assume that our bodies are all natural and pristine, with a perfect and absolute differentiation between male and female. And you also confuse gender with sex.

Sex is not the same as gender, there're transgender but not transsexual people, gender is a social construct and as such is prone to be too restricted to encompass every individual manifestation.

Sex is not black and white either, there's a great range of types of bodies, and those are as naturally ocurring as any other, so we can't claim sex is black and white either.

You also mention the pathological side of sex, there're almost everywhere around the world, protocols to assign intersex people one sex or the other, that is, to adequate the anatomy of a baby to one of two sexes based on the label of "hermaphrodites" (this include male babies, with male chromosomes and hormones, but with a penis too small to "functions" properly, so they make a vagina instead)
That says a lot about the actual understanding, or lack thereof, of "science" (I quote it because there's a lot of pshyco-woo around this things) around gender issues.

About the body mutilation thing. We're no longer "natural" humans anymore, and we haven't been for a long time, we modify our bodies in extremely varied ways, bigger boobs, smaller boobs, bigger butts, more fat here, less fat there, a bit of bubonic plague for the wrinkles, whiter teeth, colour contacts, earrings, clothes (low tech), weird hair colours, penis enlargement surgeries, plates in lips, sticks in dicks, earrings in nipples, tattoos, tongue splitting... You get the idea...

If chopping off an arm makes someone happier, then let him/her chop it off!! yeah, give him some therapy before and try to make him happy and keep his/her arm, but it's not our body to decide, it's not our mind to control.

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15-07-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 05:17 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Thread split, as per suggested by Caveman.

Wow, you actually do stuff?

Don't let the other mods know...

Oh, and Caveman...

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15-07-2013, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2013 07:24 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Before this explodes into a heated dichotomous debate fueled by personal convictions let me both say that you both have very strong points...

To Nach's point it is stupid to think that we are flawless in our natural state, our parents where good enough to survive and reproduce and that is about all you can be sure of. There are all sorts of genetic disorders associated with gender, just like there are genetic disorders for just about every other part of your body.

To Caveman's point body modification is something that is dangerous, expensive and doesn't always change everything for the better. Just because you shift some bits around and take some hormones does not truly change your gender and I'd imagine one might find themselves with a whole host of new problems. Trey Parker and Matt Stone illustrate the point in beautiful satire. South Park season #9 Dolphinoplasty - Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Vagina.

I'd also like say that I have made conversation once with a male going female, after spending a year seeing this person on campus it turns out that a friend of mine had developed a rapport and I happened to be around and I learned a lot about the guy/gal, foremost that she was a very kind person and I wish her the best, and second that modifications had not made her life any easier or better (from her conversation with my friend), but I believed she intended to follow through to the next step anyway.

So if you where to ask me I would say go do what you want to do but think real hard before you risk your health and/or indebt yourself with an invasive surgery. One day we might have the tech to retrovirus a person into whatever they want to be, but that time has not yet come, and I wouldn't want risk to ending up with Michael Jackson's nose where my dick used to be even if I wanted to replace it with a vag. The world sucks if you are a woman stuck in a mans body, a man stuck in a woman's body, a small/short/slender and soft faced man with a fake voice who can't find a date or a fat woman with stubble who can't have kids. Life always sucks, and you have to get used to that.

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15-07-2013, 07:16 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 06:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Wow, you actually do stuff?

Don't let the other mods know...

Girl_nails What are you talking about, Cantor? Tongue

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16-07-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  You assume that our bodies are all natural and pristine, with a perfect and absolute differentiation between male and female. And you also confuse gender with sex.
Maybe, with sex I mean intercourse. With Gender I mean the body we have, male or female. My english is decent, but not perfect.

(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Sex is not the same as gender, there're transgender but not transsexual people, gender is a social construct and as such is prone to be too restricted to encompass every individual manifestation.
No, what you are talking about is genderroles. I am not talking about those.

(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Sex is not black and white either, there's a great range of types of bodies, and those are as naturally ocurring as any other, so we can't claim sex is black and white either.
Yes, all bodies are different.

(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  You also mention the pathological side of sex, there're almost everywhere around the world, protocols to assign intersex people one sex or the other, that is, to adequate the anatomy of a baby to one of two sexes based on the label of "hermaphrodites" (this include male babies, with male chromosomes and hormones, but with a penis too small to "functions" properly, so they make a vagina instead)
That says a lot about the actual understanding, or lack thereof, of "science" (I quote it because there's a lot of pshyco-woo around this things) around gender issues.
Where do I mention that?
To your point about parents and doctors deciding there and then to do some renovating is a completely different issue. The child themselves has no thoughts or choice in the matter.
Makes me think of infants being circumcised at infancy.

(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  About the body mutilation thing. We're no longer "natural" humans anymore, and we haven't been for a long time, we modify our bodies in extremely varied ways, bigger boobs, smaller boobs, bigger butts, more fat here, less fat there, a bit of bubonic plague for the wrinkles, whiter teeth, colour contacts, earrings, clothes (low tech), weird hair colours, penis enlargement surgeries, plates in lips, sticks in dicks, earrings in nipples, tattoos, tongue splitting... You get the idea...
Yes. And we are free to judge those people for their actions.

(15-07-2013 06:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  If chopping off an arm makes someone happier, then let him/her chop it off!! yeah, give him some therapy before and try to make him happy and keep his/her arm, but it's not our body to decide, it's not our mind to control.

I am inclined to agree with you. Then later they learn the hard way how foolish they were.
But by the same logic: should anyone be able to jump off of the Empire State Building because they think they can fly?

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16-07-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 06:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Oh, and Caveman...

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Dude, I expect a little more from you.

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16-07-2013, 08:51 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 06:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Before this explodes into a heated dichotomous debate fueled by personal convictions let me both say that you both have very strong points...
This is why I felt safe to reply on the topic.

(15-07-2013 06:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  To Caveman's point body modification is something that is dangerous, expensive and doesn't always change everything for the better. Just because you shift some bits around and take some hormones does not truly change your gender and I'd imagine one might find themselves with a whole host of new problems. Trey Parker and Matt Stone illustrate the point in beautiful satire. South Park season #9 Dolphinoplasty - Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Vagina.
I wanted to avoid mentioning it. The message of this episode is indeed pretty much in line with my opinion. But the extreme over-exaggeration might have been deemed offensive in the original topic.

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16-07-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 08:23 AM)Caveman Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 06:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Oh, and Caveman...

Dude, I expect a little more from you.

Ya know what they say about expectations. Thumbsup

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