[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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18-07-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
I insist, you underrate the impact of society unacceptance of transgender people on their lives. It seem that you want to find some evidence to support your predefined gender binary and their roles.

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18-07-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 03:11 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism. (Read the entire study here)

What about the rates of gender identity disorder patients BEFORE surgery? You are assuming the surgery has something to do with the suicide rates; I'd say it's the gender identity.
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18-07-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 03:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:24 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Hermaphrodites are people with a physical deformity. Like Siamese twins. Confusion is to be expected. The fact that they are confused is not surprising! Doesn't tell us which gender they "should" have been. We shouldn't be surprised that doctors chose the simplest solution. Not a decision I would want to make! "Transgendered" people are not in that category. They have the equipment, but want to change it.

I would like to hear from people, or find a link to this subject, to find out if, statistically, it is a good idea. Because I can envision this as a very bad idea.

Again, this is not hate speech. But I don't want to say: " Hey, dude! I love you, go for it!" And it's the worst mistake of your life!

Intersex is the correct term and you say it's a deformity as the male and female sexes were some sort of god send definition of normality and correctness.

Get it in you mind, intersex are just regular people with a different genetic expression than what society has deemed "normal". But if you were to honestly analyse the facts, you'll see that there's nothing detrimental in being intersex.

If they're confused, is because we assign so much power to the male/female binary conception of humanity that they obviously find themselves as weirded out, but that's our fault, we are the ones confusing them, not the other way around...



About that study you present. Correlation doesn't imply causation. When you study the usual place transexual people are forced to occupy in society (pariahs) it's of no surprise that they have higher suicide rates and other problems, but there's no proof that it is because they're transexual. Actually, I'd say it is because society hates and discriminates them rather than the other way around.

Yes, and I have a medical book written in the early 1900s that basically states that any gender confusion (which to them included homosexuality) was blamed on the mother, by breast feeding too long, or over mothering the individual. Also to blame were fathers who drank. It also mentions taking great pains to ensure young children are taught that boys wear pants, dig for bugs and shoot things. Girls wear dresses, play with dolls and engage in quiet activities.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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18-07-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
That's a terrible conclusion. Though I disapprove of the practice, I would ofcourse hope that those who have undertaken it will live happier lives.

It might be a point towards my side of the argument. Though I prefer to just let this take death out of the argument.
Suicide is not exclusive to people with this affliction. It happens to completely different people as well.

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18-07-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 08:56 AM)amyb Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:27 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You are restricted in life's primary function. To procreate.

(I see now that this was already discussed in some replies.)

Well, I'd better kill myself then, since my life apparently has no meaning. Oh wait, my life still has meaning to me, even without that ability....

I'd say that it is in the species' best interest to continue, but I don't think that has to apply to each and every individual. The species will keep on keeping on even without a handle of people procreating (and some transpeople have procreated, and calling them handicapped because of their genitals completely ignores this fact and the fact that they don't all want bottom surgery (or are able to afford it)).

Well, that was uncalled for.
Are you saying everyone with handicaps should kill themselves?
Second of all I am actually saying that I consider your condition to be very serious.
Third, if you are smart enough to debate on this forum you are smart enough to raise a proper kid Wink

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18-07-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 03:31 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Well, that was uncalled for.
Are you saying everyone with handicaps should kill themselves?
Second of all I am actually saying that I consider your condition to be very serious.
Third, if you are smart enough to debate on this forum you are smart enough to raise a proper kid Wink
Point is, I cannot have children and I do not want children, so whether or not I'd make a good parent is beside the point.

I was joking about killing myself, because you said that, more or less, my life lacks purpose since I will not have children. I specifically said this is NOT a handicap, and that I am not handicapped, so my response has nothing to do with handicapped people.


Quote:I would like to hear from people, or find a link to this subject, to find out if, statistically, it is a good idea. Because I can envision this as a very bad idea.
It would be a bad idea if you are not transgendered. But I'm on at least 2 forums with a high population of transpeople and they seem much more well adjusted afterward, to me... If it doesn't follow non-op patients, then the study is flawed, because we already know from other studies that gender dysphoric persons have a high suicide rate.

Quote:To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons.
Meaningless unless compared with a similar population of transpeople who either couldn't afford transition or were [unethically] denied transition.
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18-07-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 03:04 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:53 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  RESULTS:

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

CONCLUSIONS:

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.






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Interesting, not really surprising. As I stated earlier it seems that a good portion of the transgender community have some major issues that this alone wont solve. For example one of our newer members here is M2F and has mentioned trouble with lesbians (something about her not being a real woman) I don't know how deep that problem is but isolation both pre and post-op seems to be an issue with some transgender people.

I wonder how much swing there is when compared to other high risk groups rather than the gen pop and what the numbers compare to pre-op vs post. In any case the findings here don't say don't do the surgery just that the surgery is not a cure-all. I would imagine that by the time one actually went through the entire gauntlet one would be pretty sure of the decision. It seems to be designed to weed out those that would have regrets.

" I would imagine that by the time one actually went through the entire gauntlet one would be pretty sure of the decision." Well I'm not imagining that! You are assuming that persons who want to physically alter their bodies are always mentally stable. And that some "professional" has helped them make the right decision! I am telling you, from PERSONAL experience, that these "professionals" are almost as lost as we are! They couldn't help my brother, The only help they could give my aunts was to institutionalize them. Same thing for my girlfriends son. You really want them to tell you whether you need to change your sex?
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18-07-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
No! There's a high suicide rate! Find who you are! Not who you want to be! Check out the statistics! These people who are telling you that you should do this are just trying to be your friend. You don't need a friend right now. You need to KNOW!

Why am I doing this? Because I am alone and hurting and sad. And I don't want you to hurt yourself,
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18-07-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 03:47 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 03:04 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Interesting, not really surprising. As I stated earlier it seems that a good portion of the transgender community have some major issues that this alone wont solve. For example one of our newer members here is M2F and has mentioned trouble with lesbians (something about her not being a real woman) I don't know how deep that problem is but isolation both pre and post-op seems to be an issue with some transgender people.

I wonder how much swing there is when compared to other high risk groups rather than the gen pop and what the numbers compare to pre-op vs post. In any case the findings here don't say don't do the surgery just that the surgery is not a cure-all. I would imagine that by the time one actually went through the entire gauntlet one would be pretty sure of the decision. It seems to be designed to weed out those that would have regrets.

" I would imagine that by the time one actually went through the entire gauntlet one would be pretty sure of the decision." Well I'm not imagining that! You are assuming that persons who want to physically alter their bodies are always mentally stable. And that some "professional" has helped them make the right decision! I am telling you, from PERSONAL experience, that these "professionals" are almost as lost as we are! They couldn't help my brother, The only help they could give my aunts was to institutionalize them. Same thing for my girlfriends son. You really want them to tell you whether you need to change your sex?

So what you're saying your personal (written by you in caps for I assume emphasis) experience completely negates everyone else who has entered a therapy realm with a positive outcome? Sounds a bit like confirmation bias to me.

My son has benefited greatly from his psychiatrist, but I'm not foolish enough to say that all of them are just wonderful. As with everything in life there are good and bad -- and sometimes your choices seem limited.

A good therapist also doesn't tell you if you need to change anything. They can assist in the process. Sometimes they even disagree.


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18-07-2013, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2013 04:55 PM by amyb.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
What moms said. Therapists don't tell you to go get surgery, you go to them because you're already gender dysphoric and want guidance and someone to talk to.

And though there are bad psychiatrists (and bad people in any profession), one experience does not mean they are ALL bad.

Quote:No! There's a high suicide rate! Find who you are! Not who you want to be!
That's what transgender people are doing: finding out what they are by exploring their gender issues, by living as their desired gender to see if it's what they really want and if it makes them happier.

There is a high suicide rate because they are ALREADY gender dysphoric. Their therapists and surgeons (if they have any surgery) are assisting them in becoming who they really are inside, and making their outsides match. There's a high suicide rate because people like some people in this thread tell them their feelings on who they are aren't valid and that there is something wrong with them. You seem to think that if someone dresses like the sex on their birth certificate and doesn't transition, that someone gets rid of the gender dysphoria, but that's what caused the dysphoria. A transperson will still feel that way no matter how they look.
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