[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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18-07-2013, 06:33 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Whether the operation makes the transgender person happy isn't the question that needs to be asked. What should be asked is whether the person is employed. An employed person is almost always happier than an unemployed person. Does the person have family members and friends that support them or are they being totally rejected? Are they having to resort to prostitution? Many transgender people become prostitutes out of desperation and in several studies some of the patients were prostitutes. One study I know of the doctor slept with one of the transgender patients. It kinda skews the results.

Those post-op transgender people who have jobs, family and community that accept them are happier people. It's almost impossible to separate severe social stigma from mental illness.

One of the most important aspects of being transgender is being able to "pass" as the opposite sex. Those that transition in their early twenties have better success passing and often people don't even know they are transgender. When my daughter told her younger sister that she was transgender she (younger sister) didn't even bat an eye. The younger generation are more open to gender fluidity.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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18-07-2013, 06:36 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
^That too. In any case, I'd think there are MANY more factors at work regarding the suicide rates than just "has the person had sexual reassignment surgery?" (Which is what I interpreted the previous posts on the matter as saying, correct me if I'm wrong there.)
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18-07-2013, 10:33 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 02:59 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, . .. "have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population!!!" . . . . Our findings suggest that . . . "sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."



Told ya! We want to be nice folks, but lets not be nice to the point of a bullet ion the brain!


I would like to see a breakdown of the post-op transgender people involved in this study. There was a fairly large study a few years back that used, among some of the participants, prostitutes. Quite a few were unemployed, a great many had been shunned by their families. I'm not sure if this was the study, I'd have to do some research, but that is part of the problem with any study of people who are transgender. The rejection is so overwhelming and final, their lives are so marginalized and just the economics of being transgender is beyond what most people could handle. So of course happiness is low and suicide is high. It stands to reason.

I can't site any studies on this, just my experience in dealing with my daughter and the many transgender people she has talked to. We have found that the better one passes for the opposite gender the more successful and happier the person is. Add in the support of a family and you have a better all around situation.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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19-07-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
dancefortwo:

"Quite a few were unemployed, a great many had been shunned by their families."

This is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks for bringing it up!

Now I'm going to bring up another ugly issue. Transgendered people (people who have actually had the operation) from what I have seen, generally can't "pass". They (again, from what I have seen) look wrong. Almost creepy. Just being honest. The male skeletal structure is different from the female. As is the muscular structure. A former co-worker of mine actually had the surgery. She "was" female. Now has some beard growth. But, I would bet dollars to peanuts, that most of the people who encounter her are taken aback. I suspect that she is "judged" instantly. Because she really doesn't look male. Despite the goatee she is trying to grow. If you have this surgery, you may not "pass" and you will be judged. Every time you step outside, people will notice you.

So, if you are uncomfortable with your body, and want to feel "normal", it is unlikely that this will happen for you, because the gender you were born with is much more complicated than your sexual organs.

"There are many differences between the male and female human skeletons. Men tend to have slightly thicker and longer limbs and digit bones, while women tend to have narrower rib cages, smaller teeth, less angular mandibles, and less pronounced cranial features such as the brow ridges and occipital protuberance (the small bump at the back of the skull). Most striking is the difference in hip bones, owing to differences related to the process of reproduction, and very likely also to the biological process of sexual selection. There are a number of smaller differences between human male and female skeletons as well."

My comments, here, are not about any kind of sexual hatred! But if you are considering a "Sex change" operation: You should know that, rather than looking like someone of the opposite sex, you will look, most likely, abnormal.
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19-07-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Quote:They (again, from what I have seen) look wrong. Almost creepy
Again, it is their life, not yours. And there are many types of cosmetic surgery, like facial feminization surgery, that can help with that issue. (Usually, things like narrowing the jaw in transwomen, narrowing the nose, plumping lips, sometimes bone is removed from the brow.)

Quote:My comments, here, are not about any kind of sexual hatred! But if you are considering a "Sex change" operation: You should know that, rather than looking like someone of the opposite sex, you will look, most likely, abnormal.
Do you think transpeople are unaware of this or something? That they're in denial about their body or face type? They're doing something that makes them happier. That counts more for most than the average stranger's judgment of their appearance. Hell, cisgender women are judged on their appearance too, especially if they're fat or not conventionally attractive. If a transwoman is considered unattractive, then she's probably at least happier that she's a woman. It's about happiness in own's own body/gendfer, not becoming a supermodel.
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19-07-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Cossey

Bondgirl was a boy!

[Image: 9F8EE51F-61C4-4E04-88F1-4C7D83DE78BE-457...E326EB.jpg]


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-07-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 04:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 03:47 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  " I would imagine that by the time one actually went through the entire gauntlet one would be pretty sure of the decision." Well I'm not imagining that! You are assuming that persons who want to physically alter their bodies are always mentally stable. And that some "professional" has helped them make the right decision! I am telling you, from PERSONAL experience, that these "professionals" are almost as lost as we are! They couldn't help my brother, The only help they could give my aunts was to institutionalize them. Same thing for my girlfriends son. You really want them to tell you whether you need to change your sex?

So what you're saying your personal (written by you in caps for I assume emphasis) experience completely negates everyone else who has entered a therapy realm with a positive outcome? Sounds a bit like confirmation bias to me.

My son has benefited greatly from his psychiatrist, but I'm not foolish enough to say that all of them are just wonderful. As with everything in life there are good and bad -- and sometimes your choices seem limited.

A good therapist also doesn't tell you if you need to change anything. They can assist in the process. Sometimes they even disagree.

"So what you're saying your personal (written by you in caps for I assume emphasis) experience completely negates everyone else who has entered a therapy realm with a positive outcome?"

Of course not! But many of us suffer from low incomes. Which means that psychological care for our family members is an issue that is dealt with by overworked and underpaid people who may not be capable of and may not even have the time to address the difficult issues they are presented with. Millions of us live with this debilitating problem! And our entire families are crippled by it. Yea. I wrote it in all caps! Because, believe me, it's an all caps issue for me!
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19-07-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(19-07-2013 02:37 PM)amyb Wrote:  
Quote:They (again, from what I have seen) look wrong. Almost creepy
Again, it is their life, not yours. And there are many types of cosmetic surgery, like facial feminization surgery, that can help with that issue. (Usually, things like narrowing the jaw in transwomen, narrowing the nose, plumping lips, sometimes bone is removed from the brow.)

Quote:My comments, here, are not about any kind of sexual hatred! But if you are considering a "Sex change" operation: You should know that, rather than looking like someone of the opposite sex, you will look, most likely, abnormal.
Do you think transpeople are unaware of this or something? That they're in denial about their body or face type? They're doing something that makes them happier. That counts more for most than the average stranger's judgment of their appearance. Hell, cisgender women are judged on their appearance too, especially if they're fat or not conventionally attractive. If a transwoman is considered unattractive, then she's probably at least happier that she's a woman. It's about happiness in own's own body/gendfer, not becoming a supermodel.

The question is "Will this make them happy?" I hope that it will! But we have to explore the idea that it may do the opposite! Will it make them happy? Or will it kill them?
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19-07-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(19-07-2013 03:05 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  The question is "Will this make them happy?" I hope that it will! But we have to explore the idea that it may do the opposite! Will it make them happy? Or will it kill them?
If anything kills them, I'd say it's the gender dysphoria, which exists whether they have surgery or not. The gender dysphoria (feeling they are in a body of the wrong sex) is what bothers transpeople. The surgery (or just dressing differently, etc) is an attempt to lessen the dysphoria that they already feel. I don't think the surgery is what causes the suicides.
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19-07-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(19-07-2013 03:05 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:37 PM)amyb Wrote:  Again, it is their life, not yours. And there are many types of cosmetic surgery, like facial feminization surgery, that can help with that issue. (Usually, things like narrowing the jaw in transwomen, narrowing the nose, plumping lips, sometimes bone is removed from the brow.)

Do you think transpeople are unaware of this or something? That they're in denial about their body or face type? They're doing something that makes them happier. That counts more for most than the average stranger's judgment of their appearance. Hell, cisgender women are judged on their appearance too, especially if they're fat or not conventionally attractive. If a transwoman is considered unattractive, then she's probably at least happier that she's a woman. It's about happiness in own's own body/gendfer, not becoming a supermodel.

The question is "Will this make them happy?" I hope that it will! But we have to explore the idea that it may do the opposite! Will it make them happy? Or will it kill them?

I think the problem is that you have an "ick" factor going on. It might help people greatly who have a support system intact. Those who are surrounded by people telling them they're making a mistake -- will very likely have a different outcome.

We do need to vastly improve out mental health care in this country -- no argument from me at all. The lines you draw here seem to be etched in stone and not drawn in sand.

Is the road harder for transgender people? Yes! But we collectively can make it a little easier for them by showing them compassion and empathy, rather than treating them like their weird or strange.

I really think they're brave because they dare to live their dreams and make them as close to reality as they can.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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