[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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19-07-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Additionally, I would add that we are talking about the possibility of many types of surgeries, including facial feminization surgeries, "top surgery" (either double mastectomy or breast implants), "bottom surgery" (genitals, which could consist of more than one surgery also) and then there is also the issue of taking hormones for feminization/masculinization of the body as well as things like liposuction or hair removal, so it's more complex than just saying if a person has "had surgery" or not.
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20-07-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Thanks for talking, everyone. I have to admit that I am still not comfortable with the idea that surgery can make a man a woman, or visa-versa. Or make them happy in their body. Because that guy or girl who tries to make that change will see, in the mirror, every day, that it didn't really work. Bone structure is still wrong. Muscular structure is still wrong. Puberty still happened in a different way. Which is why I keep asking for opinions from someone who has actually been there and done that. But you have given me some things to think about. The ultimate question is will this help the person. Or will it harm them. If it helps them, I am for it. But whether it helps or not, is not a question of how we feel about it. It's a statistical matter. Like the high suicide rates.

"RESULTS:

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

CONCLUSIONS:

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

So, Let's not smile and be nice as the bodies hit the floor.
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20-07-2013, 06:48 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(20-07-2013 02:36 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Thanks for talking, everyone. I have to admit that I am still not comfortable with the idea that surgery can make a man a woman, or visa-versa. Or make them happy in their body. Because that guy or girl who tries to make that change will see, in the mirror, every day, that it didn't really work. Bone structure is still wrong. Muscular structure is still wrong. Puberty still happened in a different way. Which is why I keep asking for opinions from someone who has actually been there and done that. But you have given me some things to think about. The ultimate question is will this help the person. Or will it harm them. If it helps them, I am for it. But whether it helps or not, is not a question of how we feel about it. It's a statistical matter. Like the high suicide rates.
You're still not addressing the fact that these people are NOT HAPPY with the gender assigned to them at birth.

As for bone structure, etc., being "wrong", I've already addressed the fact that they don't make this decision based on YOUR aesthetic standards, but rather, what makes them feel better about themselves.

Quote:"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.
This is the main problem I have with the study: it is comparing post-op transsexuals with the general population. If it wants to make assertions about the surgeries themselves, it needs to compare postop and nonop people with gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder.
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20-07-2013, 09:11 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(19-07-2013 02:31 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  dancefortwo:

"Quite a few were unemployed, a great many had been shunned by their families."

This is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks for bringing it up!

Now I'm going to bring up another ugly issue. Transgendered people (people who have actually had the operation) from what I have seen, generally can't "pass". They (again, from what I have seen) look wrong. Almost creepy. Just being honest. The male skeletal structure is different from the female. As is the muscular structure. A former co-worker of mine actually had the surgery. She "was" female. Now has some beard growth. But, I would bet dollars to peanuts, that most of the people who encounter her are taken aback. I suspect that she is "judged" instantly. Because she really doesn't look male. Despite the goatee she is trying to grow. If you have this surgery, you may not "pass" and you will be judged. Every time you step outside, people will notice you.

So, if you are uncomfortable with your body, and want to feel "normal", it is unlikely that this will happen for you, because the gender you were born with is much more complicated than your sexual organs.

"There are many differences between the male and female human skeletons. Men tend to have slightly thicker and longer limbs and digit bones, while women tend to have narrower rib cages, smaller teeth, less angular mandibles, and less pronounced cranial features such as the brow ridges and occipital protuberance (the small bump at the back of the skull). Most striking is the difference in hip bones, owing to differences related to the process of reproduction, and very likely also to the biological process of sexual selection. There are a number of smaller differences between human male and female skeletons as well."

My comments, here, are not about any kind of sexual hatred! But if you are considering a "Sex change" operation: You should know that, rather than looking like someone of the opposite sex, you will look, most likely, abnormal.

Most of the public get all hung of on the "operation" but it's the hormones that are much more important than the operation. When hormones are given before the age of about 25 the transition is easier on the eye. Everything is "set" in stone by 25 and its much harder to look female or male, which ever the case may be. Some people start taking the hormones at 18 but it's imperative that the person is absolutely sure this is the right thing to do. Lots of therapy is needed. Lots of therapy!

There is also something most people don't know about and that is Facial Feminizing Surgery. This fixes the jaw and forehead to make it more feminine. It's expensive but many transgender people save up money for this surgery...if they can. But as I mentioned the earlier the hormones are taken the better the final outcome.

My daughter started taking hormones a year and a half ago at the age of 20. We discouraged her from doing this and felt she should wait some more. She was adamant and as she had been in therapy, going twice a week for two years, she knew this was totally the right thing to do. She researched every angel and aspect of the hormones. Within two weeks she was feeling so much better, 100% better she said, and psychologically she has improved by leaps and bounds. The hormones are given in low doses and over the course of two years are raised in slow increments. Anti androgens are given for those going from male to female. This blocks testosterone. It's very important that these are taken.

From what I've read, and jesus christ I've read volumes on this subject, it's really the hormones that kick start everything. The operation is the icing on the cake so to speak. But some people are fine just taking the hormones and don't want the operation.

This is one of the youngest girls to have a sex change operation. She's a singer from Germany (I think) and most people don't even know she's transgender.

[Image: kim-580_844661a.jpg]

This was a contestant in the Miss Canada pageant last year. It did cause a fuss but Canada is much more progressive than we are.

[Image: untitled.png]


This girl is from Tulsa Oklahoma and dates a transgender boy. They're actually a cute couple. Anyway here she is graduating from H. School and is off to a college.

[Image: transgender_couple6.jpg]


It's just more difficult to pull off the outward appearance of female when you transition after your early 20's. This was a former Navy Seal.

[Image: Kristin-Beck-screenshot.jpg]

When I went to the mall two days ago with my two daughters I walked far behind them to see if my transgender daughter was being stared at. No one looked at her or tried to avert their eyes quickly or turned around to stare at her after passing by. Nothing. I have to admit, I was so relieved.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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20-07-2013, 09:30 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
As I mentioned before, there are actually some good examples of this on the Dr 90210 tv show, which is on Netflix. I can't stand the doctor and his family on that show, but the surgery parts are interesting. There are some very good examples of facial feminization, and there are some MTF and FTM genital surgeries.

Quote:Bone structure is still wrong. Muscular structure is still wrong.
Again, women and transwomen are not decorations, they do not exist just so you can judge their appearance as to whether or not it's feminine enough for your standards. I'd think their happiness is more important.

That being said, i'm on some transgender boards where a lot of the MTF transwomen are more feminine looking than I am, and I have XX chromosomes.
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21-07-2013, 09:34 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(20-07-2013 09:30 PM)amyb Wrote:  As I mentioned before, there are actually some good examples of this on the Dr 90210 tv show, which is on Netflix. I can't stand the doctor and his family on that show, but the surgery parts are interesting. There are some very good examples of facial feminization, and there are some MTF and FTM genital surgeries.

Quote:Bone structure is still wrong. Muscular structure is still wrong.
Again, women and transwomen are not decorations, they do not exist just so you can judge their appearance as to whether or not it's feminine enough for your standards. I'd think their happiness is more important.

That being said, i'm on some transgender boards where a lot of the MTF transwomen are more feminine looking than I am, and I have XX chromosomes.

amyb, are you transgender or gender fluid? Do you mind telling me your age?

I've only lurked on the transgender boards to get an idea of what my daughter was going through. It helped me to understand her troubles and concerns. Yes, it seems that many of the girls on the transgender forums are very feminine. I've also looked at many youtube videos of transitions. Like I said the hormones help with the physical transitions more than anything else and you can see this in most of the youtube videos.

Here is more information on the biology of the transgender brain and a gene variance they have found.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2...401941.htm

It's pretty evident that there is a physical and biological source of ones gender in the brain.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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21-07-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(20-07-2013 06:48 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(20-07-2013 02:36 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Thanks for talking, everyone. I have to admit that I am still not comfortable with the idea that surgery can make a man a woman, or visa-versa. Or make them happy in their body. Because that guy or girl who tries to make that change will see, in the mirror, every day, that it didn't really work. Bone structure is still wrong. Muscular structure is still wrong. Puberty still happened in a different way. Which is why I keep asking for opinions from someone who has actually been there and done that. But you have given me some things to think about. The ultimate question is will this help the person. Or will it harm them. If it helps them, I am for it. But whether it helps or not, is not a question of how we feel about it. It's a statistical matter. Like the high suicide rates.
You're still not addressing the fact that these people are NOT HAPPY with the gender assigned to them at birth.

As for bone structure, etc., being "wrong", I've already addressed the fact that they don't make this decision based on YOUR aesthetic standards, but rather, what makes them feel better about themselves.

Quote:"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.
This is the main problem I have with the study: it is comparing post-op transsexuals with the general population. If it wants to make assertions about the surgeries themselves, it needs to compare postop and nonop people with gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder.

The reason I bring up The fact that they look "wrong" Has nothing to do with my aesthetic standards. I bring it up because it is a challenge they will face. After moving hell and earth to find bodies they are happy with, spending a great deal of time, money and, probably, suffering a lot of social derision during their lives, They will find, (again, from what I have seen) that they still have bodies they aren't happy with. Their hopes may be high, while the results may be disappointing. This could, especially after years of struggle, cause extreme depression and even suicide! So there are two questions here: One: am I right (statistically)? And I don't know that I am. Two: (If I am right) Is encouraging people to pursue these operations an encouragement to suicide?
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21-07-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
I have asked for comments from people who are transgendered, who may be able to offer help to those of us who may misunderstand this issue, and have had no responses. Some of you seem to have personal knowledge of the issue, but are not willing to expound upon it. Your friends seem to know about your personal knowledge, but I do not. Therefore you are leaving me ignorant.

If you are leaving me ignorant because you fear that people will know your situation and will ridicule you, I understand that and accept your silence.

If you are doing it because you think that I am full of hate and want to ridicule you, I apologize for not making myself clear. I do have a sharp tongue and am fully capable of sarcasm! But I am here, because I am truly curious about this issue.
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22-07-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
We, as atheist, don't hesitate to ask Christians for proof that their god is real. We should expect no less from people who question our ideas. I suspect that most of us believe that humans evolve and that evolution is not a perfect process. You may be a human who is a "victim" of that failed process. Lets say you were born conjoined with another person. A Siamese twin: If this is the case, you are not "normal". Surgery may be an option. It may make you more "normal" But it is likely that you and your brother/sister, lack the appropriate number of limbs and may even share organs which, if severed, will kill one of you. Under these circumstances, your question is not, simply, "Do I want to be "normal"? And will this surgery help me achieve that? (And I am skipping the question of will this kill my sibling, because I don't think it relates to the current discussion.) But how "normal" can it make me? You weren't born "normal". Therefore you haven't lived "normal". So, your question is not: What can I do to be "normal". It is: What is the best way to proceed with my life, for a happy future?

So. Here's my conclusion for today: A sex change operation, of whatever kind, can't make you "normal". Just as a violence, alcoholism, murder free operation can't make ME (sorry for the all caps!!!) "normal". The question is: Is it beneficial? I don't know! Who does? What are the statistics?
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22-07-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(20-07-2013 09:11 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:31 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  dancefortwo:

"Quite a few were unemployed, a great many had been shunned by their families."

This is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks for bringing it up!

Now I'm going to bring up another ugly issue. Transgendered people (people who have actually had the operation) from what I have seen, generally can't "pass". They (again, from what I have seen) look wrong. Almost creepy. Just being honest. The male skeletal structure is different from the female. As is the muscular structure. A former co-worker of mine actually had the surgery. She "was" female. Now has some beard growth. But, I would bet dollars to peanuts, that most of the people who encounter her are taken aback. I suspect that she is "judged" instantly. Because she really doesn't look male. Despite the goatee she is trying to grow. If you have this surgery, you may not "pass" and you will be judged. Every time you step outside, people will notice you.

So, if you are uncomfortable with your body, and want to feel "normal", it is unlikely that this will happen for you, because the gender you were born with is much more complicated than your sexual organs.

"There are many differences between the male and female human skeletons. Men tend to have slightly thicker and longer limbs and digit bones, while women tend to have narrower rib cages, smaller teeth, less angular mandibles, and less pronounced cranial features such as the brow ridges and occipital protuberance (the small bump at the back of the skull). Most striking is the difference in hip bones, owing to differences related to the process of reproduction, and very likely also to the biological process of sexual selection. There are a number of smaller differences between human male and female skeletons as well."

My comments, here, are not about any kind of sexual hatred! But if you are considering a "Sex change" operation: You should know that, rather than looking like someone of the opposite sex, you will look, most likely, abnormal.

Most of the public get all hung of on the "operation" but it's the hormones that are much more important than the operation. When hormones are given before the age of about 25 the transition is easier on the eye. Everything is "set" in stone by 25 and its much harder to look female or male, which ever the case may be. Some people start taking the hormones at 18 but it's imperative that the person is absolutely sure this is the right thing to do. Lots of therapy is needed. Lots of therapy!

There is also something most people don't know about and that is Facial Feminizing Surgery. This fixes the jaw and forehead to make it more feminine. It's expensive but many transgender people save up money for this surgery...if they can. But as I mentioned the earlier the hormones are taken the better the final outcome.

My daughter started taking hormones a year and a half ago at the age of 20. We discouraged her from doing this and felt she should wait some more. She was adamant and as she had been in therapy, going twice a week for two years, she knew this was totally the right thing to do. She researched every angel and aspect of the hormones. Within two weeks she was feeling so much better, 100% better she said, and psychologically she has improved by leaps and bounds. The hormones are given in low doses and over the course of two years are raised in slow increments. Anti androgens are given for those going from male to female. This blocks testosterone. It's very important that these are taken.

From what I've read, and jesus christ I've read volumes on this subject, it's really the hormones that kick start everything. The operation is the icing on the cake so to speak. But some people are fine just taking the hormones and don't want the operation.

This is one of the youngest girls to have a sex change operation. She's a singer from Germany (I think) and most people don't even know she's transgender.

[Image: kim-580_844661a.jpg]

This was a contestant in the Miss Canada pageant last year. It did cause a fuss but Canada is much more progressive than we are.

[Image: untitled.png]


This girl is from Tulsa Oklahoma and dates a transgender boy. They're actually a cute couple. Anyway here she is graduating from H. School and is off to a college.

[Image: transgender_couple6.jpg]


It's just more difficult to pull off the outward appearance of female when you transition after your early 20's. This was a former Navy Seal.

[Image: Kristin-Beck-screenshot.jpg]

When I went to the mall two days ago with my two daughters I walked far behind them to see if my transgender daughter was being stared at. No one looked at her or tried to avert their eyes quickly or turned around to stare at her after passing by. Nothing. I have to admit, I was so relieved.

You will have to prove to me that any of these girls were ever guys! Frankly, I don't believe it! Not saying you are wrong and I actually hope that you are right! But I am an artist. These girls have female bone structure!
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