[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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22-07-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Why do you keep talking about "normal" people... that concept is arbitrary, you want "normal" or "natural" bodies for everyone? never ask a woman to shave her legs, or stop using clothes or any other thing to make your life more comfortable or easier... I know, you'll say that sex change is extreme and dangerous and blah blah blah... who are you to pass judgement on the benefits of something you just don't know anything about? the topic is far too complex to elaborate in a few paragraphs here, you want simple statistics or data, there isn't none, because there's nothing simple about it.

You want to know what are the real consequences of this situations, go read some books about gender issues, go to some NGO who works with the topic and ask for some first hand information.

You won't find the truth about hard things sitting in front of your laptop waiting for others to do your research for you.

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22-07-2013, 06:01 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Why do you NOT want to talk about "normal people"? "Normal" people rule the world and will judge people they deem "abnormal". You are right to suggest that the concept is arbitrary, though! "Normal" is a very difficult concept to address. As is "Abnormal". "I know, you'll say that sex change is extreme and dangerous and blah blah blah": Oh yes I will!! It a surgery that will alter ones entire life! And ones body! So, you can't use "blah blah" as your defense for it.

"You won't find the truth about hard things sitting in front of your laptop waiting for others to do your research for you."

So, you think that, every time I make a comment on a thread, here, I should read a bunch of books to understand my question???? If that is the case, I will never make any progress! I will be reading forever! I can make the same argument for you! Anyone who considers any of these operations, must understand how they relate to all religions! Because they may have made a bad religious decision. They must also understand how their decision relates to their physiology. Again, many books. They must understand how their decision relates to psychological issues. So, they'll need a degree, there!

It's fun to play: "I'm right and you're an Idiot!" I love that game! But, sometimes you meet someone you THOUGHT was an idiot, because they disagreed with you. But they aren't!

So. You are playing the same confusion cards your religious comrades are playing. And for the same reason! It's a good cause! We are right! Same cards! Same wrong answers!

I ask you all again. Have YOU done the research? Are you sure it's a good idea to surgically change your sex? And can you FUCKING prove it!
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22-07-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 06:01 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Why do you NOT want to talk about "normal people"? "Normal" people rule the world and will judge people they deem "abnormal". You are right to suggest that the concept is arbitrary, though! "Normal" is a very difficult concept to address. As is "Abnormal".
If we can't even define it, then we shouldn't use it so lightly

Quote:"I know, you'll say that sex change is extreme and dangerous and blah blah blah": Oh yes I will!! It a surgery that will alter ones entire life! And ones body! So, you can't use "blah blah" as your defense for it.
I can because any argument is useless, because it's not our business if someone fuck up his/her life by their own decisions.

Quote:"You won't find the truth about hard things sitting in front of your laptop waiting for others to do your research for you."

So, you think that, every time I make a comment on a thread, here, I should read a bunch of books to understand my question???? If that is the case, I will never make any progress! I will be reading forever! I can make the same argument for you! Anyone who considers any of these operations, must understand how they relate to all religions! Because they may have made a bad religious decision. They must also understand how their decision relates to their physiology. Again, many books. They must understand how their decision relates to psychological issues. So, they'll need a degree, there!

weak strawman, not every comment on a thread, but this topic in particular and the questions you raise are too complex to just try to address them without some fundamental knowledge.
About the people who make the decision, again, not our damn business.

Quote:It's fun to play: "I'm right and you're an Idiot!" I love that game! But, sometimes you meet someone you THOUGHT was an idiot, because they disagreed with you. But they aren't!

So. You are playing the same confusion cards your religious comrades are playing. And for the same reason! It's a good cause! We are right! Same cards! Same wrong answers!

I ask you all again. Have YOU done the research? Are you sure it's a good idea to surgically change your sex? And can you FUCKING prove it!

I'm not playing the "I'm right..." game, I don't say you're an idiot, I'm saying that what you ask of us is not fair, we can't provide you with universal proof about something that is extremely personal for each person that faces the issue. For some may be right, for some may be wrong...

I've done my research, and I've read several very complicated books about the sociology and psychology of gender, gender identity, sex, and sexual orientation. Those books contain terribly complicated epystemologies and theories and a myriad of different approaches to the topic and the only two things I can say for sure is that I can't translate them accurately (I can hardly explain them in my own language) and that the question you ask doesn't have a simple yes or no answer. So stop asking for FUCKING yes or no answers. Some things in this life are more complicated than good or bad...

My only quarrel with you is that you can't seem to understand that you are too quick to judge this stuff as bad while you can't possibly have an universal answer about the convenience or not of the operation.

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22-07-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
"I can because any argument is useless, because it's not our business if someone fuck up his/her life by their own decisions."

If we give advice, Even if we "like" a comment" suggesting that someone take action about some idea they are perusing, we have contributed to their decision. If someone asks you "Should I pull the trigger?" And you say: "Sure! Why not!" You have contributed to that decision! So, you can't say "I love you and just do this thing!" Because it seems to be what you want. It could be that you should say: "Dude! Don't go there!"
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22-07-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 06:01 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  So. You are playing the same confusion cards your religious comrades are playing. And for the same reason! It's a good cause! We are right! Same cards! Same wrong answers!

I ask you all again. Have YOU done the research? Are you sure it's a good idea to surgically change your sex? And can you FUCKING prove it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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22-07-2013, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 07:27 PM by nach_in.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 07:17 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "I can because any argument is useless, because it's not our business if someone fuck up his/her life by their own decisions."

If we give advice, Even if we "like" a comment" suggesting that someone take action about some idea they are perusing, we have contributed to their decision. If someone asks you "Should I pull the trigger?" And you say: "Sure! Why not!" You have contributed to that decision! So, you can't say "I love you and just do this thing!" Because it seems to be what you want. It could be that you should say: "Dude! Don't go there!"

In some cases we can't know what to advice, and we have to trust the decision maker choice and support them, as long as they don't violate some core ethical principle like hurting others. This is one of those cases.

Check this youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/sexplanations

It has great explanations, brief and to the point, specially the "interthoughts" videos.
She still doesn't address transgender(ism?), but some of the ideas are there and probably she will eventually Smile

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22-07-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
"My only quarrel with you is that you can't seem to understand that you are too quick to judge this stuff as bad while you can't possibly have an universal answer about the convenience or not of the operation"

Are you kidding? This is exactly what I am fighting against! I am not judging! I am asking people not to jump to the conclusion that this is a good decision. Because I have seen some evidence that it may not be. I am not looking for a "universal" answer. But I am looking for an answer that is statically valid!
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22-07-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 07:35 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "My only quarrel with you is that you can't seem to understand that you are too quick to judge this stuff as bad while you can't possibly have an universal answer about the convenience or not of the operation"

Are you kidding? This is exactly what I am fighting against! I am not judging! I am asking people not to jump to the conclusion that this is a good decision. Because I have seen some evidence that it may not be. I am not looking for a "universal" answer. But I am looking for an answer that is statically valid!

Valid to you? Or that's actually fair? Most studies done before the 1990s involved mostly anecdotal evidence gathered from therapy sessions that didn't breach doctor/patient privilege. They did not include speaking with actual people living in that world.

Today there are more studies being done and these studies mostly show that with a good support system the outcomes are greatly improved.

It's really much like the treatment of homosexuals 40 years ago. No one really knows how many committed suicide. But even fundies would rather admit that their kid killed himself than admit it was because of their own treatment of them -- when they discovered they were gay.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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22-07-2013, 08:27 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 07:22 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 06:01 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  So. You are playing the same confusion cards your religious comrades are playing. And for the same reason! It's a good cause! We are right! Same cards! Same wrong answers!

I ask you all again. Have YOU done the research? Are you sure it's a good idea to surgically change your sex? And can you FUCKING prove it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

This is below you, Mom! I know what "Circular Reasoning" means. And I think you know that I am not an idiot!

I am not asking a hateful question here. I am asking an honest question.

My opinion and concerns about this issue may be wrong. But they may be right!

I have no hate for anyone who is considering change of sex, surgically. And I wish you the best if you chose this pass. But I am concerned for you. And I want you to make this decision after much careful thought.

I wouldn't attempt to tell you that you are wrong. That is not for me to do. I only suggest that you consider the complex and potentially devastating results of your decision. I wish you the very best!

So, ask yourself a question: Who's beating who up?

I ask a lot of questions. I feel like I should be able to do that here.

Mom. I have told you about my personal life and how difficult it was. Still is. It is beneath you to send me a link, explaining "Circular Reasoning" .
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22-07-2013, 08:59 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 08:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 07:22 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

This is below you, Mom! I know what "Circular Reasoning" means. And I think you know that I am not an idiot!

I am not asking a hateful question here. I am asking an honest question.

My opinion and concerns about this issue may be wrong. But they may be right!

I have no hate for anyone who is considering change of sex, surgically. And I wish you the best if you chose this pass. But I am concerned for you. And I want you to make this decision after much careful thought.

I wouldn't attempt to tell you that you are wrong. That is not for me to do. I only suggest that you consider the complex and potentially devastating results of your decision. I wish you the very best!

So, ask yourself a question: Who's beating who up?

I ask a lot of questions. I feel like I should be able to do that here.

Mom. I have told you about my personal life and how difficult it was. Still is. It is beneath you to send me a link, explaining "Circular Reasoning" .

Wow. Did you look at the link? Your argument can be valid and still be circular. The questions you've asked have been answered. Honestly and objectively. More than once and more than just one person. Yet, you continue along the same lines. It's a logical falicy to take a claim and apply it to all. Science counts the hits and misses but more importantly doesn't draw conclusions but allows the weight of evidence to dictate the outcome.

You began with a presupposition and have ignored what others, myself, Dancing, and Amyb, have all explained that with good support system, therapy, etc., outcomes are greatly improved. You argued that they 'look' strange and do not appear "normal"

Anytime it seems your logic is challenged you say things like 'I don't want to hurt people' or 'you don't like me.'

I didn't send the link to personally attack you. I sent it in the hopes you would actually read it and alter your argument or do more research on your own. Instead of blankly questioning the research others have done.

All your questions have been asked -- you keep repeating the same ones.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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