[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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22-07-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 04:35 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(20-07-2013 09:11 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Most of the public get all hung of on the "operation" but it's the hormones that are much more important than the operation. When hormones are given before the age of about 25 the transition is easier on the eye. Everything is "set" in stone by 25 and its much harder to look female or male, which ever the case may be. Some people start taking the hormones at 18 but it's imperative that the person is absolutely sure this is the right thing to do. Lots of therapy is needed. Lots of therapy!

There is also something most people don't know about and that is Facial Feminizing Surgery. This fixes the jaw and forehead to make it more feminine. It's expensive but many transgender people save up money for this surgery...if they can. But as I mentioned the earlier the hormones are taken the better the final outcome.

My daughter started taking hormones a year and a half ago at the age of 20. We discouraged her from doing this and felt she should wait some more. She was adamant and as she had been in therapy, going twice a week for two years, she knew this was totally the right thing to do. She researched every angel and aspect of the hormones. Within two weeks she was feeling so much better, 100% better she said, and psychologically she has improved by leaps and bounds. The hormones are given in low doses and over the course of two years are raised in slow increments. Anti androgens are given for those going from male to female. This blocks testosterone. It's very important that these are taken.

From what I've read, and jesus christ I've read volumes on this subject, it's really the hormones that kick start everything. The operation is the icing on the cake so to speak. But some people are fine just taking the hormones and don't want the operation.

This is one of the youngest girls to have a sex change operation. She's a singer from Germany (I think) and most people don't even know she's transgender.

[Image: kim-580_844661a.jpg]

This was a contestant in the Miss Canada pageant last year. It did cause a fuss but Canada is much more progressive than we are.

[Image: untitled.png]


This girl is from Tulsa Oklahoma and dates a transgender boy. They're actually a cute couple. Anyway here she is graduating from H. School and is off to a college.

[Image: transgender_couple6.jpg]


It's just more difficult to pull off the outward appearance of female when you transition after your early 20's. This was a former Navy Seal.

[Image: Kristin-Beck-screenshot.jpg]

When I went to the mall two days ago with my two daughters I walked far behind them to see if my transgender daughter was being stared at. No one looked at her or tried to avert their eyes quickly or turned around to stare at her after passing by. Nothing. I have to admit, I was so relieved.

You will have to prove to me that any of these girls were ever guys! Frankly, I don't believe it! Not saying you are wrong and I actually hope that you are right! But I am an artist. These girls have female bone structure!

Ok, Ameron, you don't seem to believe that someone transgender can totally pass as a female. The photo's I posted were all trangender male to female.

Here is some background on each person.

Kim Petras......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

an interview with Kim Petras.....




This is the beauty queen, Jenna Talackova, from Canada talking to Barbara Walters about being a boy and the transition to becoming a girl.......






This is the girl in the photo with the graduation robe on. She is transgender and dating a transgender boy.





All of these girls started taking hormones early and I'll bet if no one told you anything about their background you would just think they were ordinary girls. They seem pretty damn happy too.

Like I said, taking the hormones early makes all the difference. Early 20's is optimal.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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22-07-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 11:06 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 04:35 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  You will have to prove to me that any of these girls were ever guys! Frankly, I don't believe it! Not saying you are wrong and I actually hope that you are right! But I am an artist. These girls have female bone structure!

Ok, Ameron, you don't seem to believe that someone transgender can totally pass as a female. The photo's I posted were all trangender male to female.

Here is some background on each person.

Kim Petras......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

an interview with Kim Petras.....




This is the beauty queen, Jenna Talackova, from Canada talking to Barbara Walters about being a boy and the transition to becoming a girl.......






This is the girl in the photo with the graduation robe on. She is transgender and dating a transgender boy.





All of these girls started taking hormones early and I'll bet if no one told you anything about their background you would just think they were ordinary girls. They seem pretty damn happy too.

Like I said, taking the hormones early makes all the difference. Early 20's is optimal.

Sorry, the Jenna Talackova interview with Barbara Walters isn't working so here's another one. Hope it works.





Bone structure? Looks quite feminine.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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22-07-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(19-07-2013 02:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Cossey

Bondgirl was a boy!

[Image: 9F8EE51F-61C4-4E04-88F1-4C7D83DE78BE-457...E326EB.jpg]

This woman on the cover of Life magazine was born male. You can google and find pictures of when she posed in playboy and when she was really a he.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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23-07-2013, 12:59 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Dancefortwo shows some videos and background info on some of the people who have undergone the surgery and have had success afterwards as sexy women.
This is, however, completely beside the point.
The point on which this topic was started and discussed is whether or not people approve of the practice.

Showing videos on how sexy they new women are is the same as saying religion is a force for good because they give food to starving people. ''Guys can beat off to them, so it's ok"".
All while ignoring the bigger picture.

Also, if we focus on these people looking sexy after their procedures. You are demeaning the entire point.
You would turn them into sex-objects rather than strong characters who have undergone adversity.

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23-07-2013, 01:35 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(23-07-2013 12:59 AM)Caveman Wrote:  Dancefortwo shows some videos and background info on some of the people who have undergone the surgery and have had success afterwards as sexy women.
This is, however, completely beside the point.
The point on which this topic was started and discussed is whether or not people approve of the practice.

Showing videos on how sexy they new women are is the same as saying religion is a force for good because they give food to starving people. ''Guys can beat off to them, so it's ok"".
All while ignoring the bigger picture.

Also, if we focus on these people looking sexy after their procedures. You are demeaning the entire point.
You would turn them into sex-objects rather than strong characters who have undergone adversity.

I disagree. Someone else claimed that transgender people don't "look normal" Pictures were shown, he said he wanted more proof. I think they seem pretty well-adjusted. Happy even.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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23-07-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(23-07-2013 12:59 AM)Caveman Wrote:  Dancefortwo shows some videos and background info on some of the people who have undergone the surgery and have had success afterwards as sexy women.
This is, however, completely beside the point.
The point on which this topic was started and discussed is whether or not people approve of the practice.

Showing videos on how sexy they new women are is the same as saying religion is a force for good because they give food to starving people. ''Guys can beat off to them, so it's ok"".
All while ignoring the bigger picture.

Also, if we focus on these people looking sexy after their procedures. You are demeaning the entire point.
You would turn them into sex-objects rather than strong characters who have undergone adversity.

I was responding to Ameron who claimed that transgender women never look normal or pass as women, that their bone structure remains masculine. So I posted pictures and videos of women who could easily pass as a women. It was posted not to demean them as sex objects but to point out that no one would even question their gender. By the way, the girl with her boyfriend couldn't be put in that sexy category and the singer Kim Petras is more "cute" than sexy.

What you don't realize is that these days there are thousands of transgender people who go on with their lives. Lives filled with work and fulfilled with relationships. Yes some do have troubles but this is happening less and less as a newer generation of young people emerge with a more open view of gender and it's fluidity. I don't know where you live but if you live in any kind of the larger cities you probably have walked past a transgender person and never even knew it.

As I mentioned when my daughter told my other daughter that she was transgender it wasn't a big deal. It was a chance to have a sister instead of a brother. Transgender people are weaving themselves, often silently, in our culture. The greatest complement for a transgender man or woman is to look like everyone else. This is what my daughter wants, to blend into the world and after a rocky start it looks like this will happen.

Another misconception by you and others is that when the "operation" is performed there is no going back. Not true. It's the hormones that change everything. If hormones are taken for over six to eight months the changes that occur cannot be reversed. That is the point of no return.

Whether you approve of changing genders is neither here nor there and the studies of transgender regret are so flawed as to be worthless. The transgender people I've contacted have no regrets, are working and are fine. So what's your problem?

By the way, here is more evidence that this is a real thing.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2...401941.htm

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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23-07-2013, 03:58 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 08:59 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 08:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  This is below you, Mom! I know what "Circular Reasoning" means. And I think you know that I am not an idiot!

I am not asking a hateful question here. I am asking an honest question.

My opinion and concerns about this issue may be wrong. But they may be right!

I have no hate for anyone who is considering change of sex, surgically. And I wish you the best if you chose this pass. But I am concerned for you. And I want you to make this decision after much careful thought.

I wouldn't attempt to tell you that you are wrong. That is not for me to do. I only suggest that you consider the complex and potentially devastating results of your decision. I wish you the very best!

So, ask yourself a question: Who's beating who up?

I ask a lot of questions. I feel like I should be able to do that here.

Mom. I have told you about my personal life and how difficult it was. Still is. It is beneath you to send me a link, explaining "Circular Reasoning" .

Wow. Did you look at the link? Your argument can be valid and still be circular. The questions you've asked have been answered. Honestly and objectively. More than once and more than just one person. Yet, you continue along the same lines. It's a logical falicy to take a claim and apply it to all. Science counts the hits and misses but more importantly doesn't draw conclusions but allows the weight of evidence to dictate the outcome.

You began with a presupposition and have ignored what others, myself, Dancing, and Amyb, have all explained that with good support system, therapy, etc., outcomes are greatly improved. You argued that they 'look' strange and do not appear "normal"

Anytime it seems your logic is challenged you say things like 'I don't want to hurt people' or 'you don't like me.'

I didn't send the link to personally attack you. I sent it in the hopes you would actually read it and alter your argument or do more research on your own. Instead of blankly questioning the research others have done.

All your questions have been asked -- you keep repeating the same ones.

Yes. I looked at the link! It is a Wikipedia definition of the phrase: "circular argument". I took this to mean that you thought I am not smart enough to know what a circular argument is. But. you, dancing and amyb have inspired me to look further into the subject. I am watching some of the videos now. Best to you and yours, no matter what direction you choose to take.
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23-07-2013, 04:23 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(22-07-2013 11:06 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 04:35 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  You will have to prove to me that any of these girls were ever guys! Frankly, I don't believe it! Not saying you are wrong and I actually hope that you are right! But I am an artist. These girls have female bone structure!

Ok, Ameron, you don't seem to believe that someone transgender can totally pass as a female. The photo's I posted were all trangender male to female.

Here is some background on each person.

Kim Petras......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

an interview with Kim Petras.....




This is the beauty queen, Jenna Talackova, from Canada talking to Barbara Walters about being a boy and the transition to becoming a girl.......






This is the girl in the photo with the graduation robe on. She is transgender and dating a transgender boy.





All of these girls started taking hormones early and I'll bet if no one told you anything about their background you would just think they were ordinary girls. They seem pretty damn happy too.

Like I said, taking the hormones early makes all the difference. Early 20's is optimal.

You are right. They do look like girls. And they seem very happy. So, how am I going to refute this? I'm not! Because I may damn well be wrong! Thanks for the posts!
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23-07-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
YAY!! progress!! Tongue

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23-07-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(23-07-2013 04:25 PM)nach_in Wrote:  YAY!! progress!! Tongue

Thanks to you and everyone else for talking. You may have made me a better man.
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