[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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16-07-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Sigh, this is similar to another infamous topic now...

Here I go...

The problem with your analysis, Caveman, is that the examples you used highlight detrimental disorders. If you believe you can fly and jump off buildings, you're going to die. If you believe you don't need a leg or arm and cut it off, you're going to come out handicap without a doubt. Hallucinations can get you or someone else killed. If not, it could ruin your life or at minimum, prevent you from living a normal one.

Swapping gender via surgery... yes, as with any type of medical operation, there are risks. But when successful, the person walks away normal. There is no DISORDER of the brain here. They aren't handicap. They aren't hearing voices. They aren't jumping off buildings. They can live a normal life and in a lot of cases, an even more normal life.

@Ridethespiral: What you speak of is easier said than done. You don't have a brain screaming at you that you are the opposite sex. Yea, as a heterosexual male, I can't possibly imagine cutting my dick off for a vag. But that's not something transgender people are dealing with is it?

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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16-07-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(15-07-2013 04:09 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Allright.
All the previous posters here agree with your actions and have commended you for it.
While I must indeed applaud you for supporting someone through a time of need: this is still a forum. And, in it's very nature, is meant for discussion.
I feel the need to pose an opposing view.

Please remember that this is not meant personal, but general.

You wrote that you faced criticism. I picture this as coming from the same kind of people that criticize atheists for "turning to a highway to hell". And I commend you for withstanding that. Peer-pressure can be very strong.

I myself am against the practice of gendertransformation.
I believe that it is going too far.
We draw a very fine line when it comes to psychological (or psychiatrical, I am not a doctor so I will stick with the first) issues.
When someone things they can fly and they want to jump off of buildings, we don't rationalise the same way. They are not fitted with wings. (Delusional)
When someone thinks they should not have a right leg, arm or breast, we do not rationalise the same way and amputate that bodypart. (Body Dismorphic disorder).
When someone talks to "dead people" or sees things, anything from objects to "aura's", we do not perpetually analyse their eyes. (hallucinations).

Then why, when someone says they are a different gender, do we let them take dozens of surgeries and chemical/medicinal treatments to, in essence, put more time, money and effort into their bodies than is spent on the reconstruction of a sizeable house?

I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.

To your specific case: Your child had other symptoms as well. You wrote about hearing voices and paranoia and described those as being seperate and unrelated.
I am not a doctor, so feel free to completely ignore this sentence: but that sounds to me that there just might be a deeper root-cause. One might have led to the other.

Again: I do not condone the actions of your child individually.
I do not criticize you as parents. Your child was 18, a legal adult and took his (at the time) own choices.
I just believe that because medical science has allowed us to come so far as to be ABLE to do something, it doesn't mean that we SHOULD. We stop medical science in a great many ways, all of them less severe than this practice.

I would also like to know more about your and your husbands' thoughtprocess in the matter. From the moment that of the first conversation to, say, now.

@moderator-team: Please feel free to split this into a seperate topic if you believe it doesn't belong.

Caveman. I respect your views however it was in the 1960's that scientists began to realize that gender is also imbedded somewhere in the brain not just in our genitals or even in our chromosomes. There are several indication throughout our bodies that tell us what our gender is. And as was previously mentioned sex and gender is a separate thing. Who we are attracted to is different than what our gender is.

There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given. It was then that scientists realized that gender was much more complex than just xy or xx or the physical genitals. There was also something in the brain that signals "gender" and sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't jive with the body's gender.

In this boy's case his mind was male but the male parts were no longer there.

My daughter is transgender as you know. In looking back on his life as a child many things make sense now. The alignment of the body with the brain, and that's what we really talking about here, gives a person physical peace. It's not just "feeling" like a girl or "feeling" like a boy, your brain is also your gender just as much as what's between your legs.

As I have stated before, so many people really want transgender people to be miserable after they transition but most feel extreme relief at the end of the journey as my daughter certainly has.

I would never want her to go back to being male. The misery she endured as a male was more than I would ever want to see anyone go through.

If any of you have time to watch this video, please, please take the time. It's a wonderful speech from the director of the Matrix movies, Lana Wachowski, who is transgender. It's about 8 minutes long.




Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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16-07-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 11:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 04:09 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Allright.
All the previous posters here agree with your actions and have commended you for it.
While I must indeed applaud you for supporting someone through a time of need: this is still a forum. And, in it's very nature, is meant for discussion.
I feel the need to pose an opposing view.

Please remember that this is not meant personal, but general.

You wrote that you faced criticism. I picture this as coming from the same kind of people that criticize atheists for "turning to a highway to hell". And I commend you for withstanding that. Peer-pressure can be very strong.

I myself am against the practice of gendertransformation.
I believe that it is going too far.
We draw a very fine line when it comes to psychological (or psychiatrical, I am not a doctor so I will stick with the first) issues.
When someone things they can fly and they want to jump off of buildings, we don't rationalise the same way. They are not fitted with wings. (Delusional)
When someone thinks they should not have a right leg, arm or breast, we do not rationalise the same way and amputate that bodypart. (Body Dismorphic disorder).
When someone talks to "dead people" or sees things, anything from objects to "aura's", we do not perpetually analyse their eyes. (hallucinations).

Then why, when someone says they are a different gender, do we let them take dozens of surgeries and chemical/medicinal treatments to, in essence, put more time, money and effort into their bodies than is spent on the reconstruction of a sizeable house?

I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.

To your specific case: Your child had other symptoms as well. You wrote about hearing voices and paranoia and described those as being seperate and unrelated.
I am not a doctor, so feel free to completely ignore this sentence: but that sounds to me that there just might be a deeper root-cause. One might have led to the other.

Again: I do not condone the actions of your child individually.
I do not criticize you as parents. Your child was 18, a legal adult and took his (at the time) own choices.
I just believe that because medical science has allowed us to come so far as to be ABLE to do something, it doesn't mean that we SHOULD. We stop medical science in a great many ways, all of them less severe than this practice.

I would also like to know more about your and your husbands' thoughtprocess in the matter. From the moment that of the first conversation to, say, now.

@moderator-team: Please feel free to split this into a seperate topic if you believe it doesn't belong.

Caveman. I respect your views however it was in the 1960's that scientists began to realize that gender is also imbedded somewhere in the brain not just in our genitals or even in our chromosomes. There are several indication throughout our bodies that tell us what our gender is. And as was previously mentioned sex and gender is a separate thing. Who we are attracted to is different than what our gender is.

There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given. It was then that scientists realized that gender was much more complex than just xy or xx or the physical genitals. There was also something in the brain that signals "gender" and sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't jive with the body's gender.

In this boy's case his mind was male but the male parts were no longer there.

My daughter is transgender as you know. In looking back on his life as a child many things make sense now. The alignment of the body with the brain, and that's what we really talking about here, gives a person physical peace. It's not just "feeling" like a girl or "feeling" like a boy, your brain is also your gender just as much as what's between your legs.

As I have stated before, so many people really want transgender people to be miserable after they transition but most feel extreme relief at the end of the journey as my daughter certainly has.

I would never want her to go back to being male. The misery she endured as a male was more than I would ever want to see anyone go through.

If any of you have time to watch this video, please, please take the time. It's a wonderful speech from the director of the Matrix movies, Lana Wachowski, who is transgender. It's about 8 minutes long.



I meant to add that there is a longer version of this video, it's about 30 minutes long. Some of it is very funny.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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16-07-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  @Ridethespiral: What you speak of is easier said than done. You don't have a brain screaming at you that you are the opposite sex. Yea, as a heterosexual male, I can't possibly imagine cutting my dick off for a vag. But that's not something transgender people are dealing with is it?

I never said it was easy and I tried to make it clear in my post that I have nothing but empathy, but also that I felt re-assignment surgery (especially the most extreme type of said surgery) and transitioning in general comes with a host of it's own problems and that one should think long and hard before making such a decision, there is no going back, that you may be trading one problem for another, that there are limits to what medicine can actually accomplish, that one should be wary of cure all solutions to life's myriad of problems etc, etc.

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16-07-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 11:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given. It was then that scientists realized that gender was much more complex than just xy or xx or the physical genitals. There was also something in the brain that signals "gender" and sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't jive with the body's gender.

I read the book but I can't remember the name of it. There was also a whole second layer of sexual abuse by the ****ed up doctor who basically had made the kind into a guinea pig for his theories IIRC, and I remember it ending tragically. Sad stuff.

I would however like to point out however that it makes a poor case for illustrating your gender identity/vs physical gender point because the child was male in gender and orientation before the botched surgery. I don't disagree with you by the way, I just don't think the case proves much more than that gender reassignment is not always a straight forward/successful business.

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16-07-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 11:40 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 11:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given. It was then that scientists realized that gender was much more complex than just xy or xx or the physical genitals. There was also something in the brain that signals "gender" and sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't jive with the body's gender.

I read the book but I can't remember the name of it. There was also a whole second layer of sexual abuse by the ****ed up doctor who basically had made the kind into a guinea pig for his theories IIRC, and I remember it ending tragically. Sad stuff.

I would however like to point out however that it makes a poor case for illustrating your gender identity/vs physical gender point because the child was male in gender and orientation before the botched surgery. I don't disagree with you by the way, I just don't think the case proves much more than that gender reassignment is not always a straight forward/successful business.

With transgender people, my daughter is transgender, a female body is being aligned with a female brain which is already wired female at birth. The hormones aren't really changing the female brain it's making the body female.

With the baby boy who had his penis burned off (I can't believe I just typed that!) the doctors thought that the hormones would change the body to female and the brain would follow suit. It didn't because the brain was male. Doctors studying the case later realized for the first time that there might be something in the brain that was gender specific and that it lines of with the body. Usually it does. With transgender people it doesn't and there are various degrees of mis matching. Some transgender people are fine with a just the hormones but others need more body transformation.

You're right about the doctors in this case. They were monsters.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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16-07-2013, 12:27 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl! Same for you girls who want to be guys. You can mutilate yourself. Now you're a guy with no weenie! You'll never have your first period. You'll never have a child. Because you are a guy! Find a way to accept it! Don't mutilate yourself! You may damn well regret it! Buy the way: It's O.K. to be a guy! Hell! It's even O.K. to be a girl!

Sorry, but "transgendered" people are people with psychological issues that they need to address, before they mutilate themselves.
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16-07-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Sigh, this is similar to another infamous topic now...

Here I go...

The problem with your analysis, Caveman, is that the examples you used highlight detrimental disorders. If you believe you can fly and jump off buildings, you're going to die. If you believe you don't need a leg or arm and cut it off, you're going to come out handicap without a doubt. Hallucinations can get you or someone else killed. If not, it could ruin your life or at minimum, prevent you from living a normal one.

Swapping gender via surgery... yes, as with any type of medical operation, there are risks. But when successful, the person walks away normal. There is no DISORDER of the brain here. They aren't handicap. They aren't hearing voices. They aren't jumping off buildings. They can live a normal life and in a lot of cases, an even more normal life.

@Ridethespiral: What you speak of is easier said than done. You don't have a brain screaming at you that you are the opposite sex. Yea, as a heterosexual male, I can't possibly imagine cutting my dick off for a vag. But that's not something transgender people are dealing with is it?

"There is no DISORDER of the brain here."

Oh, hell yes there is! This is no different than when your brain is screaming that your parents are aliens! Your parents are NOT aliens and you are a guy! Or you are a girl! You may not like it, but you are! You need to address that FACT (just look between your legs) And come to grips with it! It's O.K. to be the sex that you are. Try to change that and you may be sorry!
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16-07-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 12:39 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "There is no DISORDER of the brain here."

Oh, hell yes there is! This is no different than when your brain is screaming that your parents are aliens! Your parents are NOT aliens and you are a guy! Or you are a girl! You may not like it, but you are! You need to address that FACT (just look between your legs) And come to grips with it! It's O.K. to be the sex that you are. Try to change that and you may be sorry!

Uh... right. So people whose gender identity is more informed by their neurochemistry than their external genitalia should just... deal with it?

Y'know that ends up driving many to suicide, right?

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16-07-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 12:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl! Same for you girls who want to be guys. You can mutilate yourself. Now you're a guy with no weenie! You'll never have your first period. You'll never have a child. Because you are a guy! Find a way to accept it! Don't mutilate yourself! You may damn well regret it! Buy the way: It's O.K. to be a guy! Hell! It's even O.K. to be a girl!

Sorry, but "transgendered" people are people with psychological issues that they need to address, before they mutilate themselves.

First of all I think you need to learn about the topic and read some of the things I've posted. Gender (not sex- but gender) is not simply xx or xy chromosomes. Neither is it just what's between your legs.

Here is an scientific abstract. I'll just post the first paragraph. Please read it so you can understand the topic more.

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
Frank P. M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren and Dick F. Swaab

Abstract

"Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker. Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder."


Last year transgender was taken off the list of psychological disorders. "Neurobiological" is the key word here. It is a physical thing in the brain. The brain is tipped to female. Yes it ok to be female especially if the brain if female. Then it's really ok.

And may I add and inform you that male to female transgender people don't just chop things off. Almost all the material is used and believe it or not it's difficult for even gynocologists to see the difference between born female and transgender females. Men in a relationship with a transgender female have no idea.

Homosexuality was taken off the list of psychological disorders I believe in the late 1960's. Someone might correct me on that though.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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