[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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16-07-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 01:04 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  The fact that I am an atheist doesn't mean (for some reason) that I support every idiotic idea anyone ever had. And the idea that "my body is a girl, but I am a boy" is idiotic! I can feel for you and don't need to know what you choose to do with your thing! But you only need to look between your legs to know what sex you are! I'll bet dollars to peanuts, that their are people out there who have attempted to change their gender and regret it! You are trying to be your own god! If you are a guy, you CAN"T be a girl. If you are a girl you CAN'T be a guy! Why? because you were born as what you are!

You clearly have not read the literature dealing with this. You are making an argument from ignorance and revulsion. Just because you can't understand what is going through their heads doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'm not stating it is the correct procedure for everyone and there are a lot of steps along the way as well as psychological counseling to weed out those who this isn't the correct path for. But to off-handly claim there is no problem on the first hand and they should just "get over it" shows once again your complete insensitivity and lack of empathy.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-07-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Quote:O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl!
Again, what gets me with this, is who are you to say what a person can or can't be? Why can't they be whatever they want? I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm saying your (and similar) opinions shouldn't matter to the person, because it's their body and their life.

As others have said, you don't seem knowledgeable about the topic, and you seem to be making your argument from the "transpeople are icky" point of view. And that's fine to have that point of view, but you can't really expect others to respect it. Also, you don't seem to know much about sexual reassignment surgery. But that doesn't give you a reason to suggest others can't do what they want with their bodies, what makes them happy, etc.

As for trading one problem for another: is anyone's life devoid of problems? The point here is that living as one gender is more traumatic and more problematic because they do not identify as that gender. And staying that way often traumatizes them so much they want to die. In light of that, I'd definitely say livign as the other gender or getting surgery (not all transpeople get or want surgery) is psychologically healthier and allows them to lead happier lives.
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16-07-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 12:01 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 11:40 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I read the book but I can't remember the name of it. There was also a whole second layer of sexual abuse by the ****ed up doctor who basically had made the kind into a guinea pig for his theories IIRC, and I remember it ending tragically. Sad stuff.

I would however like to point out however that it makes a poor case for illustrating your gender identity/vs physical gender point because the child was male in gender and orientation before the botched surgery. I don't disagree with you by the way, I just don't think the case proves much more than that gender reassignment is not always a straight forward/successful business.

With transgender people, my daughter is transgender, a female body is being aligned with a female brain which is already wired female at birth. The hormones aren't really changing the female brain it's making the body female.

With the baby boy who had his penis burned off (I can't believe I just typed that!) the doctors thought that the hormones would change the body to female and the brain would follow suit. It didn't because the brain was male. Doctors studying the case later realized for the first time that there might be something in the brain that was gender specific and that it lines of with the body. Usually it does. With transgender people it doesn't and there are various degrees of mis matching. Some transgender people are fine with a just the hormones but others need more body transformation.

You're right about the doctors in this case. They were monsters.

Yeah that ass hole was like "identical twins, and I can pump one full of female hormones! Cha Ching, research paper! Oh and why not go all pedo too?! " I had to read it for social issues in college and at first I was dreading but I actually got quite a bit out of it...The rest of social issues not so much, my poor professor...

Anyway again I don't disagree with you and in conjunction with other evidence like that which you posted twice (lol btw that was an awesome way to make your point) it supports your point but on it's own it does not, on it's own it simply says that genitalia do not make the man/woman, but in no way does it on it's own prove the existence of a split gender neurobiological disorder....Frank P. M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren and Dick F. Swaab do that.

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16-07-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 12:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl! Same for you girls who want to be guys. You can mutilate yourself. Now you're a guy with no weenie! You'll never have your first period. You'll never have a child. Because you are a guy! Find a way to accept it! Don't mutilate yourself! You may damn well regret it! Buy the way: It's O.K. to be a guy! Hell! It's even O.K. to be a girl!

Sorry, but "transgendered" people are people with psychological issues that they need to address, before they mutilate themselves.

That's not true, hermaphrodites were traditionally "made female" because it was easiest to do. Many grew up completely confused as to their gender. They didn't "feel" like girls. Some were never even told.

Gender just isn't so simply defined as a penis or vajayjay.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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16-07-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 03:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 12:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl! Same for you girls who want to be guys. You can mutilate yourself. Now you're a guy with no weenie! You'll never have your first period. You'll never have a child. Because you are a guy! Find a way to accept it! Don't mutilate yourself! You may damn well regret it! Buy the way: It's O.K. to be a guy! Hell! It's even O.K. to be a girl!

Sorry, but "transgendered" people are people with psychological issues that they need to address, before they mutilate themselves.

That's not true, hermaphrodites were traditionally "made female" because it was easiest to do. Many grew up completely confused as to their gender. They didn't "feel" like girls. Some were never even told.

Gender just isn't so simply defined as a penis or vagina.

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16-07-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Thanks Nach Tongue


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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16-07-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 03:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 12:27 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  O'K. Sorry, but I have to fall into the caveman category here. If you are a guy, you are a guy. You may wish you weren't, but you are! You can NEVER be a girl! Same for you girls who want to be guys. You can mutilate yourself. Now you're a guy with no weenie! You'll never have your first period. You'll never have a child. Because you are a guy! Find a way to accept it! Don't mutilate yourself! You may damn well regret it! Buy the way: It's O.K. to be a guy! Hell! It's even O.K. to be a girl!

Sorry, but "transgendered" people are people with psychological issues that they need to address, before they mutilate themselves.

That's not true, hermaphrodites were traditionally "made female" because it was easiest to do. Many grew up completely confused as to their gender. They didn't "feel" like girls. Some were never even told.

Gender just isn't so simply defined as a penis or vajayjay.

Very true, very true. As my daughter had transitioned slowly to female she has emerged as a whole person. One of the things that her psychologist mentioned many times is that successful transitions rely so much on the family acceptance of the person. The environment is important. We also live in Portland Or and this is a fairly open minded city which has helped ease the stress. I wouldn't want to live in Alabama or some place like that.

The same is true of gay people. I think that transgender people are in the same place gay people were 20 years ago. The stress level was enormous, the psychological problems were rampant but it wasn't because being gay was itself a psychological disorder but the social stigma was so overwhelming that it lead to psychological trauma.

In the last three years I witnessed this in my daughter. Her psychological trauma has eased considerably and it continues to decline every day.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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16-07-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 03:30 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 03:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's not true, hermaphrodites were traditionally "made female" because it was easiest to do. Many grew up completely confused as to their gender. They didn't "feel" like girls. Some were never even told.

Gender just isn't so simply defined as a penis or vajayjay.

Very true, very true. As my daughter had transitioned slowly to female she has emerged as a whole person. One of the things that her psychologist mentioned many times is that successful transitions rely so much on the family acceptance of the person. The environment is important. We also live in Portland Or and this is a fairly open minded city which has helped ease the stress. I wouldn't want to live in Alabama or some place like that.

The same is true of gay people. I think that transgender people are in the same place gay people were 20 years ago. The stress level was enormous, the psychological problems were rampant but it wasn't because being gay was itself a psychological disorder but the social stigma was so overwhelming that it lead to psychological trauma.

In the last three years I witnessed this in my daughter. Her psychological trauma has eased considerably and it continues to decline every day.

Your daughter is sooooo lucky to have you for a mom! So many just aren't accepted by their families and as you said its so very important. Hug Thumbsup


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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16-07-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 03:37 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 03:30 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Very true, very true. As my daughter had transitioned slowly to female she has emerged as a whole person. One of the things that her psychologist mentioned many times is that successful transitions rely so much on the family acceptance of the person. The environment is important. We also live in Portland Or and this is a fairly open minded city which has helped ease the stress. I wouldn't want to live in Alabama or some place like that.

The same is true of gay people. I think that transgender people are in the same place gay people were 20 years ago. The stress level was enormous, the psychological problems were rampant but it wasn't because being gay was itself a psychological disorder but the social stigma was so overwhelming that it lead to psychological trauma.

In the last three years I witnessed this in my daughter. Her psychological trauma has eased considerably and it continues to decline every day.

Your daughter is sooooo lucky to have you for a mom! So many just aren't accepted by their families and as you said its so very important. Hug Thumbsup

Thanks so much, Mom. It's been hard but I wouldn't do it any differently. Heart

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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16-07-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 12:39 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "There is no DISORDER of the brain here."

Oh, hell yes there is! This is no different than when your brain is screaming that your parents are aliens! Your parents are NOT aliens and you are a guy! Or you are a girl! You may not like it, but you are! You need to address that FACT (just look between your legs) And come to grips with it! It's O.K. to be the sex that you are. Try to change that and you may be sorry!

This is no disorder. This is a physical handicap in the brain. One that isn't detrimental to one's physical well-being. It can however cause some great mental anguish. DISORDERS like hallucinations and thoughts of flying are DETRIMENTAL to one's physical well-being. Those people cannot function normally, especially the ones that want to hack off a limb.

Gender roles are defined by our brain and hormones. When something goes wrong there, gender identity problems arise. That is a physical handicap my friend, not a mental disorder.

Though it does make me wonder... are there people out there with gender confusion as a result of a mental disorder rather than a physical difference in the brain/body?

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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