[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-07-2013, 09:19 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
So what if it's a disorder? I mean, why do we even care about what others make with/to their bodies? Of course therapy should be available and encouraged if you're thinking of cutting some piece of your body... But beyond that I think we're too obsessed about what others do.

Why do we even care if it's a choice or not? Lets assume sexuality or gender identity is a choice. SO FUCKING WHAT?! If you want to bang a cactus, fine by me! [generic mandatory disclaimer about sexual activity not being harmful to others here] It's fine, we say "but it's not a choice" as if choosing to be gay or transgender was a bad thing, and it's only acceptable if it's unavoidable... the general discurse about sexuality seems like this to me lately: If it's a choice is bad because you shouldn't choose that, if it's not it's still bad but we'll "tolerate" you because you're "handicapped".

I say FUCK THAT, my sexuality or gender or yours or anyone else's is just that, a sexuality, a gender, is part of who we are and as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, it's not only not our business and we should keep our opinions to ourselves, but it's morally good to accept it as anything else without any kind of judgement or assumptions.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nach_in's post
16-07-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 08:37 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 12:39 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "There is no DISORDER of the brain here."

Oh, hell yes there is! This is no different than when your brain is screaming that your parents are aliens! Your parents are NOT aliens and you are a guy! Or you are a girl! You may not like it, but you are! You need to address that FACT (just look between your legs) And come to grips with it! It's O.K. to be the sex that you are. Try to change that and you may be sorry!

This is no disorder. This is a physical handicap in the brain. One that isn't detrimental to one's physical well-being. It can however cause some great mental anguish. DISORDERS like hallucinations and thoughts of flying are DETRIMENTAL to one's physical well-being. Those people cannot function normally, especially the ones that want to hack off a limb.

Gender roles are defined by our brain and hormones. When something goes wrong there, gender identity problems arise. That is a physical handicap my friend, not a mental disorder.

Though it does make me wonder... are there people out there with gender confusion as a result of a mental disorder rather than a physical difference in the brain/body?

That is where a good therapist is called for. They can sort out those who are just mentally ill and delusional and those who are suffering from gender identity. My understanding from the psychologists I've talked to is that in the mentally ill the gender confusion wavers back and forth depending on what medications they are on and the strength of the drug. With transgender people it's something they are aware of from the moment they become self aware as little children and it never goes away or subsides. Drugs don't make a bit of difference.

One transgender person I heard about had symptoms of tourette syndrome and the doctors tried to give her drugs for that but it did nothing. It wasn't until they let the child be the gender she wanted to be that the symptoms of tourettes went away.


The psychologist my daughter goes to is great. She has so much experience with this. So glad we found her.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like dancefortwo's post
17-07-2013, 02:32 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Sigh, this is similar to another infamous topic now...
Yeah, aware of the risk. But in this case, the OP did start about facing adversity, so I thknk it's ok.

Here I go...
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  The problem with your analysis, Caveman, is that the examples you used highlight detrimental disorders. If you believe you can fly and jump off buildings, you're going to die.
Depends on the height.

(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  If you believe you don't need a leg or arm and cut it off, you're going to come out handicap without a doubt. Hallucinations can get you or someone else killed. If not, it could ruin your life or at minimum, prevent you from living a normal one.

Cutting off functioning genitals is the same thing.
Not being able to have children can also destroy someone psychologically. It is a consequence that is probably not thought of.
At this point, the life is already changed so far from the norm that calling it normal would be demeaning the struggle these people go through.



(16-07-2013 11:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given.

Good grief, that sounds criminal to me!
A doctor burns off a part of the body and covers it up?
What happened to exploring reconstruction or a donor-organ?


(16-07-2013 12:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 12:39 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  "There is no DISORDER of the brain here."

Oh, hell yes there is! This is no different than when your brain is screaming that your parents are aliens! Your parents are NOT aliens and you are a guy! Or you are a girl! You may not like it, but you are! You need to address that FACT (just look between your legs) And come to grips with it! It's O.K. to be the sex that you are. Try to change that and you may be sorry!

Uh... right. So people whose gender identity is more informed by their neurochemistry than their external genitalia should just... deal with it?

Y'know that ends up driving many to suicide, right?

Well, yeah. People cope with many things and they commit suicide for many more. Rape, PTSD etc. Doctors can teach these people how to cope. This phenomenon is no exception there.


(16-07-2013 01:32 PM)nach_in Wrote:  There's the problem, you describe gender as a consequence of sex, but that's not real, it's backwards actually. Women has nothing to do with genitals, the same thing for man or any other gender category. How do you fit into those two sides women without obvaries? or men without testes? or men with XY chromosomes but no weenie? Or women with XY chromosomes and no period? or any other combination? If those categories don't work for intersex people, then there's a problem with the categories, because we can't force genetics and facts into man made, arbitrary concepts, we work from the facts and build up the categories.


You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

Aspiring optimist
Eternal Pragmatist.
With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 02:32 AM)Caveman Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Sigh, this is similar to another infamous topic now...
Yeah, aware of the risk. But in this case, the OP did start about facing adversity, so I thknk it's ok.

Here I go...
(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  The problem with your analysis, Caveman, is that the examples you used highlight detrimental disorders. If you believe you can fly and jump off buildings, you're going to die.
Depends on the height.

(16-07-2013 09:33 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  If you believe you don't need a leg or arm and cut it off, you're going to come out handicap without a doubt. Hallucinations can get you or someone else killed. If not, it could ruin your life or at minimum, prevent you from living a normal one.

Cutting off functioning genitals is the same thing.
Not being able to have children can also destroy someone psychologically. It is a consequence that is probably not thought of.
At this point, the life is already changed so far from the norm that calling it normal would be demeaning the struggle these people go through.



(16-07-2013 11:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There was a very tragic event in the 1960's of a boy who accidently had his penis burned off during a routine circumcision. (There was a serge in the the machine the doctor used and it completely burned the penis) At the time it was felt that gender was a social and physical construct so the doctor recommended raising him as a girl and giving him female hormones. The whole story is extremely difficult to hear but in any event the boy never could identified as a girl no matter how strong the hormones were he was given.

Good grief, that sounds criminal to me!
A doctor burns off a part of the body and covers it up?
What happened to exploring reconstruction or a donor-organ?


(16-07-2013 12:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Uh... right. So people whose gender identity is more informed by their neurochemistry than their external genitalia should just... deal with it?

Y'know that ends up driving many to suicide, right?

Well, yeah. People cope with many things and they commit suicide for many more. Rape, PTSD etc. Doctors can teach these people how to cope. This phenomenon is no exception there.


(16-07-2013 01:32 PM)nach_in Wrote:  There's the problem, you describe gender as a consequence of sex, but that's not real, it's backwards actually. Women has nothing to do with genitals, the same thing for man or any other gender category. How do you fit into those two sides women without obvaries? or men without testes? or men with XY chromosomes but no weenie? Or women with XY chromosomes and no period? or any other combination? If those categories don't work for intersex people, then there's a problem with the categories, because we can't force genetics and facts into man made, arbitrary concepts, we work from the facts and build up the categories.


You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

At least TRY to give a complete answer. But ok, I'll leave you with your boxes, good username btw Thumbsup

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2013, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 11:43 AM by amyb.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 02:32 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

Transpeople can have sex, both FTM and MTF. And not all transpeople want bottom surgery.

And people who can't procreate are not "handicapped." And it certainly is not comparable to not being able to walk or talk. Some people don't want kids. Some people consider it a good tradeoff for not living in the "wrong" body. Some cisgender people are unable to have kids, and they don't go around claiming they're handicapped. Etc.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes amyb's post
17-07-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 02:32 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

I can't procreate.

Your arguments need much more work.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Momsurroundedbyboys's post
17-07-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 11:40 AM)amyb Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 02:32 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

Transpeople can have sex, both FTM and MTF. And not all transpeople want bottom surgery.

And people who can't procreate are not "handicapped." And it certainly is not comparable to not being able to walk or talk. Some people don't want kids. Some people consider it a good tradeoff for not living in the "wrong" body. Some cisgender people are unable to have kids, and they don't go around claiming they're handicapped. Etc.

I didn't say they couldn't.
I clearly used a general example.

Aspiring optimist
Eternal Pragmatist.
With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 11:52 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 02:32 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You call them what they are, handicapped.
Someone who cannot have sex or procreate is handicapped. Like someone who can't walk, or talk.

I can't procreate.

Your arguments need much more work.

You are missing a very vital function.
You don't consider that a handicap?

Aspiring optimist
Eternal Pragmatist.
With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 01:10 PM)Caveman Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:52 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I can't procreate.

Your arguments need much more work.

You are missing a very vital function.
You don't consider that a handicap?

No. Btdt twice. Can't anymore. That argument is silly. Why on earth would I consider not getting pregnant a handicap?


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 01:10 PM)Caveman Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:52 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I can't procreate.

Your arguments need much more work.

You are missing a very vital function.
You don't consider that a handicap?

Nope. Not a handicap any way you look at it.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: