[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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17-07-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
I get that you guys want to prove Caveman wrong but do you really want to argue that sterility is not a hardship or an obstacle for people?

Yes suffering from this type of thing is no where near as awful as it used to be and yes its good for society to not reproduce so much but I don't think that sterility is a walk in the park either and I would think that a lot of ovarian and testicular cancer survivors would disagree with you guys. Heck I consider circumcision to be a handicap, "Thanks Jebus!"

"A condition that markedly restricts a person's ability to function physically, mentally, or socially."

I'd say not being able to procreate falls within that definition.

Of course pre-op transexuals should have the right to handicap themselves in such a way as to gain some other advantage (in this case personal wellbeing), I just think that the argument should be me made without redefining the role of reproductive organs to exclude reproduction and without pretending that re-assignment is a perfect endeavor, without consequence or drawback when last I checked this type of medicine is in it's infancy.

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17-07-2013, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 03:48 PM by amyb.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 02:49 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Revenant77x:

Thanks for your response. I am about to get off here. But I will look at the links you sent me at a later date.

" transgender people have some extensive problems that simply having this procedure will not be a panacea for." This is what worries me.

Has anyone here had the surgery? And how do you feel about it now?
I'm not Revenant, but I think he means it's not a cure-all for all psychological problems that a person MAY have. May have. A person who is not cisgender may have various issues, but that doesn't mean s/he can't be helped in this way. You seem to be implying that it's caused by some other issue, but the therapy and waiting time is there to weed out such people and get them whatever help they need before surgically transitioning. The point is that presenting as a different gender can be the solution for ONE of their problems.

And for the 100th time, not all transpeople transition surgically. There are many documentaries out there, I recall several about gender being on Netflix in the past. I've seen documentaries about people in Thailand who are born male, but live as women and are happy to NOT get any kind of surgery. Not every transperson wants the same things. Most transpeople choose to live as their preferred gender long before they transition, if they transition surgically at all. This is usually a requirement for getting surgery, in fact. That means they know damn well what it's like to live as a woman/man no matter what genitals they were born with. There are even porn stars like Buck Angel, who looks like a dude, calls himself a dude, and has a vagina. And there are non-binary gender people (I consider myself part of this group).

Quote:"A condition that markedly restricts a person's ability to function physically, mentally, or socially."

I'd say not being able to procreate falls within that definition.
I would profoundly disagree with that. Not being able to have children certainly has never caused me to not function physically, mentally, or socially. Or sexually, for that matter. We're not talking about imposing sterility on unknowing people here, we're talking about adults making the choice on their own. Can you even imagine how horrifying the thought of pregnancy is to many transmen? They usually don't want that ability, anyway. Same with transwomen, most transwomen don't seem to want the ability to get another woman pregnant using a penis they usually don't even want to have. And for a transman with a womb he doesn't want, who probably binds his chest to avoid looking female, having periods and getting pregnant are just another reminder of something he does not want to be.
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17-07-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 03:21 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 02:49 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Revenant77x:

Thanks for your response. I am about to get off here. But I will look at the links you sent me at a later date.

" transgender people have some extensive problems that simply having this procedure will not be a panacea for." This is what worries me.

Has anyone here had the surgery? And how do you feel about it now?
I'm not Revenant, but I think he means it's not a cure-all for all psychological problems that a person MAY have. May have. A person who is not cisgender may have various issues, but that doesn't mean s/he can't be helped in this way. You seem to be implying that it's caused by some other issue, but the therapy and waiting time is there to weed out such people and get them whatever help they need before surgically transitioning. The point is that presenting as a different gender can be the solution for ONE of their problems.

And for the 100th time, not all transpeople transition surgically. There are many documentaries out there, I recall several about gender being on Netflix in the past. I've seen documentaries about people in Thailand who are born male, but live as women and are happy to NOT get any kind of surgery. Not every transperson wants the same things. Most transpeople choose to live as their preferred gender long before they transition, if they transition surgically at all. This is usually a requirement for getting surgery, in fact. That means they know damn well what it's like to live as a woman/man no matter what genitals they were born with.

Quote:"A condition that markedly restricts a person's ability to function physically, mentally, or socially."

I'd say not being able to procreate falls within that definition.
I would profoundly disagree with that. Not being able to have children certainly has never caused me to not function physically, mentally, or socially. Or sexually, for that matter. We're not talking about imposing sterility on unknowing people here, we're talking about adults making the choice on their own. Can you even imagine how horrifying the thought of pregnancy is to many transmen? They usually don't want that ability, anyway. Same with transwomen, most transwomen don't seem to want the ability to get another woman pregnant using a penis they usually don't even want to have.

Now all this being said I do believe that a good portion of transgender people have some extensive problems that simply having this procedure will not be a panacea for. But it is a start and while it wont solve all their problems it will allow them to move past a major one and begin working on other things.

That is my full quote so yes Amyb you more or less got my sentiments on it. I used to know a trans not a close friend and we lost touch but He was always consistent with His gender/personality even though he was born with a vagina. Having had a personal experience with this, it does happen that sometimes people are born into the wrong body for whatever reason.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-07-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
No, I didn't know that! Thanks Mom! Um . . . My ignorance is showing , isn't it?
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17-07-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 03:21 PM)amyb Wrote:  I would profoundly disagree with that. Not being able to have children certainly has never caused me to not function physically, mentally, or socially. Or sexually, for that matter. We're not talking about imposing sterility on unknowing people here, we're talking about adults making the choice on their own. Can you even imagine how horrifying the thought of pregnancy is to many transmen? They usually don't want that ability, anyway. Same with transwomen, most transwomen don't seem to want the ability to get another woman pregnant using a penis they usually don't even want to have.

I don't disagree. If I roll a Barb in D&D, of course I wouldn't cause I'm all about the Wizard but suppose I did, I probably have very little use for int and it probably won't effect me very much at all to have a low int score, but I'd be at a pretty big handicap should my situation require me to take int feats or should the wizard die and leave me in a dark cavern without a torch.

Like I said I'm just arguing semantics, I think it's silly to say to say that giving up useful biological abilities is not in some way a handicap. Whether or not you allow that to negatively impact you at all is unique to each individual and their situation.

I'm pretty sure plenty of male>female TS people would be all for becoming pregnant where that option afforded to them but they know that it is not and they live with that handicap.

Heck like you said many, many TS folks do not ever go for that final surgery, why? Because there are trade offs that they don't want to make and that is the only point I have been trying to make since my first post here.

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17-07-2013, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 04:02 PM by amyb.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 03:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 03:21 PM)amyb Wrote:  I would profoundly disagree with that. Not being able to have children certainly has never caused me to not function physically, mentally, or socially. Or sexually, for that matter. We're not talking about imposing sterility on unknowing people here, we're talking about adults making the choice on their own. Can you even imagine how horrifying the thought of pregnancy is to many transmen? They usually don't want that ability, anyway. Same with transwomen, most transwomen don't seem to want the ability to get another woman pregnant using a penis they usually don't even want to have.

I don't disagree. If I roll a Barb in D&D, of course I wouldn't cause I'm all about the Wizard but suppose I did, I probably have very little use for int and it probably won't effect me very much at all to have a low int score, but I'd be at a pretty big handicap should my situation require me to take int feats or should the wizard die and leave me in a dark cavern without a torch.

Like I said I'm just arguing semantics, I think it's silly to say to say that giving up useful biological abilities is not in some way a handicap. Whether or not you allow that to negatively impact you at all is unique to each individual and their situation.

I'm pretty sure plenty of male>female TS people would be all for becoming pregnant where that option afforded to them but they know that it is not and they live with that handicap.
Yes, but until they can implant a working uterus, it's a no-go. And they all know that. I'm saying it's not a handicap not because it doesn't take away one possible thing many people can do (procreate), but rather, because it does not necessarily impact their lives in a negative way. A handicap is an impediment to anyone who has it, and not having kids isn't necessary to everyone. In any case, I would argue that not being able to live as the gender they feel they are is a MUCH bigger problem, MUCH more debilitating. I'm not saying they will all live happily ever after and never have a problem again, I'm saying that being sterile is likely the lesser of two evils.

And this isn't D&D, it's real life, and there are problem attached to everything in real life. Talking about procreation makes it look to me like people think transpeople are dumb and haven't even thought about that angle, and they have thought about it. At least, all the ones I've ever met.

(17-07-2013 03:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Heck like you said many, many TS folks do not ever go for that final surgery, why? Because there are trade offs that they don't want to make and that is the only point I have been trying to make since my first post here.
I haven't yet met a transperson who decided not to change because of "tradeoffs," but I've met many who haven't because they're poor or just don't feel like it's necessary to change their genitals (like Buck Angel, he considers himself a man and has a vagina, maybe his "tradeoff" was getting his own niche in porn?). Transpeople can have sex, they have relationships, they can have orgasms, etc. What tradeoffs are you talking about? I just haven't heard of any NOT having surgery because they wanted to use sex organs they feel that they shouldn't even have for procreation. Some transpeople who want kids have them and THEN have bottom surgery, I've heard of that happening, yes. But it doesn't invalidate the fact that they don't want to be the gender they have been perceived as their whole lives.
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17-07-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
This is in response to several posts, too many to highlight.

To even be considered a candidate for surgery one must live as a female (as my daughter is doing) for at least two years. There needs to be two to three doctors that recommend that the patient is ready for the operation. Even after the doctor recommendation there is on going counseling with the patient.

And may I add, again, that the penis is not chopped off like sooooooo many people think. The tissue and nerves are used and reversed and made into a vigina. Most patients will experience orgasm.

In 2012 being transgender was dropped from the DMS IV, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and instead was classification as Gender Dysphoria. Dysphoria is a word meaning "distress" so this is essentially "gender distress" for those who's gender is expressed differently than what would be expected.

One thing I wanted to mention is the American Indian traditions of the "Two Spirit" people. These are transgender or gay people who as masculine women or feminine men live in two worlds. "Two Spirit" people were revered for their ability to understand both sexes therefore Native American thought of them as wise teachers and leaders. It wasn't until the Europeans arrived and stigmatized this practice that problems arose.

Somewhere I mentioned the cultures that have gods who transform themselves from female to male or from one animal to another. South East Asia is a good example of this and they don't worry so much about gender variance the way we do in the West. That's not to say they don't have prejudice and doors closed to them but they aren't as inflexible as we are here with our exclusively Male God. A static and rigidly Male God at that.

I wanted to just post the trailer for a movie called "The Beautiful Boxer"

This is a true and amazing story.





It's something to think about.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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17-07-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
I wanted to add more about being transgender and the Rigid Male God role in Christianity and the Muslim religion. Iran has one of the highest rates of sex change operations in the world outside of Thailand. Why, you ask?? Sadly, because having a same sex relationship is punishable by death in their culture so many gay people have a sex change operation to get around the problem. The government even pays for most of the cost of the surgery. Religion rears it's ugly head again.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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17-07-2013, 05:18 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 05:17 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I wanted to add more about being transgender and the Rigid Male God role in Christianity and the Muslim religion. Iran has one of the highest rates of sex change operations in the world outside of Thailand. Why, you ask?? Sadly, because having a same sex relationship is punishable by death in their culture so many gay people have a sex change operation to get around the problem. The government even pays for most of the cost of the surgery. Religion rears it's ugly head again.

I did not know that! Wow!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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17-07-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 05:17 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I wanted to add more about being transgender and the Rigid Male God role in Christianity and the Muslim religion. Iran has one of the highest rates of sex change operations in the world outside of Thailand. Why, you ask?? Sadly, because having a same sex relationship is punishable by death in their culture so many gay people have a sex change operation to get around the problem. The government even pays for most of the cost of the surgery. Religion rears it's ugly head again.

I've read an explanation about this kind of phenomenon. In highly restrictive societies or sub-cultures (ghettos and communities like that) where roles are very rigid, people also tend to fall into far more extreme categories, not just as a matter of need, but as a matter of development, it's a way to explain the above average amount of transgender people in those communities.

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