[split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
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17-07-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 03:59 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 03:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I don't disagree. If I roll a Barb in D&D, of course I wouldn't cause I'm all about the Wizard but suppose I did, I probably have very little use for int and it probably won't effect me very much at all to have a low int score, but I'd be at a pretty big handicap should my situation require me to take int feats or should the wizard die and leave me in a dark cavern without a torch.

Like I said I'm just arguing semantics, I think it's silly to say to say that giving up useful biological abilities is not in some way a handicap. Whether or not you allow that to negatively impact you at all is unique to each individual and their situation.

I'm pretty sure plenty of male>female TS people would be all for becoming pregnant where that option afforded to them but they know that it is not and they live with that handicap.
Yes, but until they can implant a working uterus, it's a no-go. And they all know that. I'm saying it's not a handicap not because it doesn't take away one possible thing many people can do (procreate), but rather, because it does not necessarily impact their lives in a negative way. A handicap is an impediment to anyone who has it, and not having kids isn't necessary to everyone. In any case, I would argue that not being able to live as the gender they feel they are is a MUCH bigger problem, MUCH more debilitating. I'm not saying they will all live happily ever after and never have a problem again, I'm saying that being sterile is likely the lesser of two evils.

And this isn't D&D, it's real life, and there are problem attached to everything in real life. Talking about procreation makes it look to me like people think transpeople are dumb and haven't even thought about that angle, and they have thought about it. At least, all the ones I've ever met.

(17-07-2013 03:49 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Heck like you said many, many TS folks do not ever go for that final surgery, why? Because there are trade offs that they don't want to make and that is the only point I have been trying to make since my first post here.
I haven't yet met a transperson who decided not to change because of "tradeoffs," but I've met many who haven't because they're poor or just don't feel like it's necessary to change their genitals (like Buck Angel, he considers himself a man and has a vagina, maybe his "tradeoff" was getting his own niche in porn?). Transpeople can have sex, they have relationships, they can have orgasms, etc. What tradeoffs are you talking about? I just haven't heard of any NOT having surgery because they wanted to use sex organs they feel that they shouldn't even have for procreation. Some transpeople who want kids have them and THEN have bottom surgery, I've heard of that happening, yes. But it doesn't invalidate the fact that they don't want to be the gender they have been perceived as their whole lives.

D&D is just a metaphor, obviously I am not a wizard.

Amy I agree with you people should be able to do whatever they want and like I said about a million times in the this thread I am well aware that TS people are afflicted in such a way that is probably very real and most certainly very real to them and I have nothing but empathy...There is no disgust or disapproval coming from my IP, but as I understand it re-assignment surgery (especially female > male) is far from a perfect venture, and yes I'm aware that it not simply lopped off (I watch a lot of discovery channel at 2:00am). Besides the cost, irreversibility and the well known risks of any invasive surgery and anesthesia, it is my understanding that often the new bits are not fully functional and that some cannot become fully engorged or achieve orgasm...and even after successful surgery there is still the whole range of other minor physical giveaways from the shoulders, chin and hips to the adams apple, body/facial hair and ones vocal timbre that can prevent one from ever fully achieving maledom or femaledom...and even for the those that can pull it off how long can one play their new role before an aging body betrays it's original nature? Is it really better to be almost male than wholly female (or visa versa)?

I am sure for some that it is worth it but I'm also pretty sure that many find themselves stuck in the same type of limbo they where in to begin with after a heck of a lot of pain except with a heck of a lot more debt, the inability to reproduce and the inability to reassume their original physical gender or blend in with society at large. It is a really tough decision, live a lie and blend in or be your self and risk being pushed to the fringes of society.

My point is not that re-assignment should be banned.

My point is not that TS folk are not brave for chasing their desires, they are.

I'm not trying to condemn anyone or shame anyone, I'm just trying to bring some reality to the thread to balance the scales between outright bigotry and wishful optimism.

My point is the same as I have expressed in other threads, and that is that one should be leery of the clinical cure-all solution, especially a permanent and invasive ones....Maybe it's because I'm Irish and my people have a long history of just drinking our problems into submission.

Ps. Dancer I wish you and your daughter the very best!

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17-07-2013, 06:28 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
As for potential sexual problems/risks: the same can be said for any surgery down there (even pregnancy can cause problems down there). Still, my main point here is that if a person wants such a surgery, they obviously think those risks are worth it. Feeling that you are the correct gender is often more important to a person than the ability to procreate or having "normal" sex (whatever that is, but surgery is getting better and it is my understanding that many postop transpeople don't have ask many sexual problems as people seem to think they do).

Quote:..betrays it's original nature? Is it really better to be almost male than wholly female (or visa versa)?
Transpeople are usually more concerned with doing what they feel is right for them than worrying that the guy next store thinks s/he is not "fully" whatever gender. It seems rather judgmental to me to call a transperson "almost male" and a nontransperson "wholly male" or "wholly female." This seems to be missing the point that they are closer to what they want to be, no matter what you think of their looks or their genitals. And it also doesn't address people who don't WANT to be "wholly" male or female. In fact, I find it somewhat wrong to force your ideas of what is "wholly" male and female on people who want to define their own gender.

Quote: inability to reassume their original physical gender or blend in with society at large.
You're forgetting that most of these people dont WANT to reassume their original gender. In fact, that's the whole point, and the point of the therapy beforehand. And not everyone wants to blend in with society, for some people, feeling happy and feeling that one fits in their own skin is more important. Also, some geographical locations are less transphobic than others.

Quote:My point is the same as I have expressed in other threads, and that is that one should be leery of the clinical cure-all solution, especially a permanent and invasive ones....Maybe it's because I'm Irish and my people have a long history of just drinking our problems into submission.
Did anyone call it a cure-all? I think people have called it more of a solution to one large problem.
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17-07-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
I think we're talking semantics here then.
We all agree it's risky and it's not something to be done lightly like a hair dyeing or a piercing, it's a complicated, extreme, and permanent (or at least with permanent consequences) change.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be a possibility, lets say, like an limb amputation, given the case, it's better to lose a limb than to die because of an infection. In the case of transgender people, it's not a disease, but it's such a grave condition that can justify a big intervention in order to make life easier and even possible for that people.

I think we can agree with that Big Grin

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17-07-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 06:28 PM)amyb Wrote:  Transpeople are usually more concerned with doing what they feel is right for them than worrying that the guy next store thinks s/he is not "fully" whatever gender. It seems rather judgmental to me to call a transperson "almost male" and a nontransperson "wholly male" or "wholly female." This seems to be missing the point that they are closer to what they want to be, no matter what you think of their looks or their genitals. And it also doesn't address people who don't WANT to be "wholly" male or female. In fact, I find it somewhat wrong to force your ideas of what is "wholly" male and female on people who want to define their own gender.

How is it that we continue to have debate over a topic which we agree on?

I'm not being judgmental I'm simply pointing out the reality of the situation, that outside of the LGBT community and it's sympathizers people will pass judgment and that one has be prepared to live with that. The very existence of this thread is evidence of that.

I am aware of all the checks, approvals and wait periods associated with said surgeries, I do feel some of that is probably "write me a check for your rubber stamp" (although to be fair I feel that way about a lot of medicine in the US)....Regardless those checks and wait periods exist for the reasons I have been giving in my posts. I am like the doctor ensuring that, like the patient, folks reading this thread understand that there are risks, costs and benefits to such a transformation. Life is a path ever narrowed by our choices and all too many college kids (IIRC this is when most people transition) are just beginning to grasp that.

It is not a trivial thing to permanently give up the ability to reproduce, it is not something to be taken lightly or downplayed. It is a sacrifice and it is evidence of the fact that these people really need to do this, provided they have given it the gravity it deserves.

I can't say any more, the entirety of my feelings on the matter have now been presented, it's been a good thread full of hard thought.

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17-07-2013, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 08:00 PM by amyb.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 07:48 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  It is not a trivial thing to permanently give up the ability to reproduce, it is not something to be taken lightly or downplayed. It is a sacrifice and it is evidence of the fact that these people really need to do this, provided they have given it the gravity it deserves.
For some people, it is a trivial thing, though. Not everyone wants children. And that's why I say it's not a "handicap," because it's quite possible to live a long, fulfilling, happy life without doing so. (and, as I already mentioned, some people have children BEFORE transitioning).

As for being judgmental, I said that because you are calling transmen "partially male" and transwomen "part female" or something, which I disagree with. If a person says to me that they are a woman, I will consider them a woman, even if they have chest hair and adam's apple, and a penis. That's where we disagree, because gender is not just the sum of one's primary and secondary sex characteristics. It is true that people will give them shit, but I think it's obvious that it is important enough to them that those people's opinion doesn't matter. And I think it should be obvious that transpeople already know that, which means they are already prepared to deal with it.

And to clarify my last paragraph, while it's possible that YOU think of a transman as something less than a man, the transman does not think of himself that way, and it's his opinion on the matter that really matters, IMO. He's the one that has to live in his own body and should feel comfortable with himself, regardless of what others think.

Other than that, what nach_in said.
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18-07-2013, 02:27 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2013 02:35 AM by Caveman.)
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 01:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 01:10 PM)Caveman Wrote:  You are missing a very vital function.
You don't consider that a handicap?

No. Btdt twice. Can't anymore. That argument is silly. Why on earth would I consider not getting pregnant a handicap?

(17-07-2013 01:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 01:10 PM)Caveman Wrote:  You are missing a very vital function.
You don't consider that a handicap?

Nope. Not a handicap any way you look at it.

Handicap
Noun
A condition that markedly restricts a person's ability to function physically, mentally, or socially.

You are restricted in life's primary function. To procreate.

(I see now that this was already discussed in some replies.)

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18-07-2013, 02:36 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(17-07-2013 05:17 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I wanted to add more about being transgender and the Rigid Male God role in Christianity and the Muslim religion. Iran has one of the highest rates of sex change operations in the world outside of Thailand. Why, you ask?? Sadly, because having a same sex relationship is punishable by death in their culture so many gay people have a sex change operation to get around the problem. The government even pays for most of the cost of the surgery. Religion rears it's ugly head again.

Religion poisons everything.
If this doesn't show that religion is merely a tool to control the population, rather than something people actually believe in, I don't know what will.

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18-07-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 02:27 AM)Caveman Wrote:  You are restricted in life's primary function. To procreate.

(I see now that this was already discussed in some replies.)

Well, I'd better kill myself then, since my life apparently has no meaning. Oh wait, my life still has meaning to me, even without that ability....

I'd say that it is in the species' best interest to continue, but I don't think that has to apply to each and every individual. The species will keep on keeping on even without a handle of people procreating (and some transpeople have procreated, and calling them handicapped because of their genitals completely ignores this fact and the fact that they don't all want bottom surgery (or are able to afford it)).
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18-07-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
Still haven't done any research. It's been a busy day. But I will! Promise. Just kind of popping in. I am told that people who wish to change their gender have to undergo a lot of psychological Tomfoolery before that is O.K. Here are my thoughts about that. And I'm sure it's another can of worms. But it so happens that I am very familiar with mental illness. I have a brother, two aunts and a girlfriend's son who suffer from different types of mental illness. One of them has improved. She's not "well" But at least she's happy. My brother talks to himself from the time he wakes up until he goes to bed. Often wakes me up, yelling violently, obscenely, at someone. My experience with mental health 9 to 5vers is that their work is often not very impressive. Judging from the success rate in my family, I wouldn't trust these folks to determine if my dog should be neutered. Not hating, just saying!
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18-07-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: [split] Thoughts on the subject of transgender by Caveman
(18-07-2013 01:53 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Still haven't done any research. It's been a busy day. But I will! Promise. Just kind of popping in. I am told that people who wish to change their gender have to undergo a lot of psychological Tomfoolery before that is O.K. Here are my thoughts about that. And I'm sure it's another can of worms. But it so happens that I am very familiar with mental illness. I have a brother, two aunts and a girlfriend's son who suffer from different types of mental illness. One of them has improved. She's not "well" But at least she's happy. My brother talks to himself from the time he wakes up until he goes to bed. Often wakes me up, yelling violently, obscenely, at someone. My experience with mental health 9 to 5vers is that their work is often not very impressive. Judging from the success rate in my family, I wouldn't trust these folks to determine if my dog should be neutered. Not hating, just saying!

This is so true! There seems to be a lot of hippie-dippie psychologists these days. One has to sort through a pile of shit to find a decent psychologist. It's unbelievable. Many of them have an agenda they're working on. It's hard to explain. With my daughter we went through six different therapists. Each one had something about them that was sort of "off". One of them fell asleep during a session. Finally we found two psychologists who were intelligent and balanced and we went with the one that had the most experience with transgender people. She has worked with intersex people too. She really knows what's what and she's down to earth too .

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