[split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
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17-10-2017, 12:55 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(14-10-2017 11:26 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(14-10-2017 11:21 AM)Eagle Wrote:  you had to use leaches to cure infection!

leeches Drinking Beverage
infections Drinking Beverage Tongue

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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17-10-2017, 01:04 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(14-10-2017 10:49 AM)Eagle Wrote:  I am a scientist and I love science.CREDENTIALS MISSING

It's a lie that science and religion don't agree. CITATION MISSING
Usually people say it when they have been brainwashed by the mainstream attitude that there is no God.CITATION MISSING

Do a better job. These people are going to think you're an idiot pretty soon.
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17-10-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(17-10-2017 01:04 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(14-10-2017 10:49 AM)Eagle Wrote:  I am a scientist and I love science.CREDENTIALS MISSING

It's a lie that science and religion don't agree. CITATION MISSING
Usually people say it when they have been brainwashed by the mainstream attitude that there is no God.CITATION MISSING

Do a better job. These people are going to think you're an idiot pretty soon.

With a rep of -35 (last time i checked was 5min ago, so who knows...) we are way past the point of no return methinks.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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17-10-2017, 01:31 AM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2017 01:40 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(17-10-2017 01:12 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 01:04 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Do a better job. These people are going to think you're an idiot pretty soon.

With a rep of -35 (last time i checked was 5min ago, so who knows...) we are way past the point of no return methinks.

He's a fucking moron whose only useful purpose here is to entertain me while I mock him.
...
wait, I think there's a song.
...
I know there's a song.
...
something about a useful idiot
...
Ha! There is a song. Ha!




#sigh
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17-10-2017, 05:54 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(16-10-2017 08:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2017 07:52 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Plus I think "How do reductionists support reason?" is a good question. The only problem with it is that not all atheists are reductionists. Perhaps very few are.

Are there actually any reductionists in the sense meant here, at all? It may be that Belaqua is constructing a straw man reductionist.

Belaqua provided a link to a book by a reductionist in the original discussion (at least if you go by the reviews, since I haven't read the book myself).
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17-10-2017, 06:04 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(16-10-2017 09:22 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(16-10-2017 08:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  It may be that Belaqua is constructing a straw man reductionist.

And your mother is ugly.

(Actually I doubt she's ugly, but it's apparently customary on this forum to start out with an insult.)

If constructing a straw man is an intentional act of dishonesty, I am not constructing a straw man.

Physical events, as in the brain, are different from mental representations (e.g. of color), abstract concepts (e.g. of justice), logical chains, or anything with intentionality (in Husserl's sense of the word). To insist that physical events can somehow give rise to one of these non-physical things seems to me like saying that if we stack up enough apples we'll eventually get an orange.

Searle, Dennett, and others have tried to figure this out, but in my opinion have not been successful. Most philosophers of mind end up with eliminationism (denying that consciousness is real), a modern version of Descartes' homunculus (some inner intelligence which observes the mind), or an infinite regress of physical mind "observing" physical mind.

If you know of a better, more persuasive explanation I am (sincerely, non-dishonestly) interested.

And your sister is ugly, too. (Just to fit in here.)

Emergent properties.

Searle's on the wrong track, and Dennett has posed questions and suggested paths of inquiry, not solutions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-10-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(17-10-2017 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Emergent properties.

Nobody has ever explained to me how they emerge.

Do you see that there are a number of big things that materialist metaphysics can't explain? It's no secret that materialism has been in trouble since Isaac Newton changed Western metaphysics so drastically.

Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle, was thoroughly materialist. There could be no form [morphe] without matter [hyle]. Galileo agreed, and rejected more spooky-sounding things like the alchemists' favorite, "action at a distance." This caused him to reject centuries of empirical evidence showing that the moon influenced the tides. He couldn't accept a non-mechanical source of motion.

Newton was more open to alchemical ideas, and accepted action at a distance, which we have since called gravity. But, the important thing here is, he could only describe how it works. He couldn't say what it is. And nobody can even now. Definitions are either metaphors (e.g. "curved space") or tautologies. And even Moliere made fun of the tautologies, when he has his doctor say of his sleeping medicine: "It has the power to put you to sleep because it contains sleep-causing properties."

If you search "Noam Chomsky materialism" on YouTube there's a good speech where he explains it better than I can.

I think we need a big paradigm shift to explain these things.
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17-10-2017, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2017 07:00 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(17-10-2017 06:41 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Emergent properties.

Nobody has ever explained to me how they emerge.

A simple example of a substance with emergent properties is salt. Salt is a combination of sodium, a metal, and chlorine, a poisonous gas. Nothing in the properties of the components could predict the properties of salt, which is essential for life.

So you don't need to understand how properties emerge so much as the fact that they do emerge. They emerge with both simple and complex reorganizations of matter, which are subject to self-organization, abiogenesis, and evolution.

The human brain is the most complex organization of matter in the known universe. It has properties which depend on that complexity, and which wouldn't exist without it. Consciousness disappears or is altered even with relatively slight changes of brain chemistry and activation, indicating it is an emergent property of the underlying matter arranged in a certain way.
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17-10-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(14-10-2017 10:49 AM)Eagle Wrote:  I am a scientist and I love science.

It's a lie that science and religion don't agree.

Usually people say it when they have been brainwashed by the mainstream attitude that there is no God.

Yeah, I'm counting this one too since he apparently hijacked it, causing it to be split. You're off on a good start, Eagle!

(09-10-2017 01:40 PM)Eagle Wrote:  Haha, it's OK I wasn't thinking of making a ton of forums about religion. Or about Christianity.

I feel this quote from the introduction section where I warned Eagle not to start a bunch of threads on religion needs to be posted on all of Eagle's threads about religion. Drinking Beverage
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17-10-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: [split] When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(16-10-2017 09:22 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(16-10-2017 08:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  It may be that Belaqua is constructing a straw man reductionist.

And your mother is ugly.

(Actually I doubt she's ugly, but it's apparently customary on this forum to start out with an insult.)

If constructing a straw man is an intentional act of dishonesty, I am not constructing a straw man.

Physical events, as in the brain, are different from mental representations (e.g. of color), abstract concepts (e.g. of justice), logical chains, or anything with intentionality (in Husserl's sense of the word). To insist that physical events can somehow give rise to one of these non-physical things seems to me like saying that if we stack up enough apples we'll eventually get an orange.

Searle, Dennett, and others have tried to figure this out, but in my opinion have not been successful. Most philosophers of mind end up with eliminationism (denying that consciousness is real), a modern version of Descartes' homunculus (some inner intelligence which observes the mind), or an infinite regress of physical mind "observing" physical mind.

If you know of a better, more persuasive explanation I am (sincerely, non-dishonestly) interested.

And your sister is ugly, too. (Just to fit in here.)

You know nothing about neuro-science, (obviously). You can be given pills, and become angry or happy. Consciousness is emergent, and in fact an illusion. If consciousness were not physical, it would still happen when brains are injured or ill. It doesn't. The end.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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