[split] excubitor vs deconversion
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29-09-2013, 06:50 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(22-09-2013 09:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 05:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  [url=http://www.victorzammit.com/][/url]
A lot of material here. There are plenty of scientists from many disciplines who are starting to put some attention into this field of study.
This website might require an open mind to read however so I doubt it will gain much traction from "thinkingatheists" I have not watched all of this but he seems to be attempting to apply science to the question.

However, just to point out what mortality means. For the body it means that the body decays and becomes dust in the ground. God made the body out of dust and at death it returns to dust. The soul however is spirit. Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist. This is the old annihilation debate which has been around forever. The church teaches however that the eternal soul remains aware. The souls of the wicked are always dead. They were dead when they were born. They remained dead when they first sinned. They remained dead when they refused to repent for all their life. The state of death of their souls is merely continuation of the state of death that they always lived in. In fact death is not a lights off / lights on question. It is a state of variation for the wicked. Their deathness increases as they sin and as they remain unrepentant, and to the extent of their deadness they suffer from the seperation from God and their condemnation in hell, where they will receive the suffering their wicked lives demand according to the measure of their wickedness.
And once again you have revealed your lack of knowledge of the religion you follow. Catholicism teaches that the saved will one day be reunited with their physical bodies and both body and soul will live for eternity in heaven.
Oh really. And where have I said anything different to this?
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29-09-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(29-09-2013 06:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 09:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  And once again you have revealed your lack of knowledge of the religion you follow. Catholicism teaches that the saved will one day be reunited with their physical bodies and both body and soul will live for eternity in heaven.
Oh really. And where have I said anything different to this?

Seriously...? Rolleyes

(22-09-2013 05:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  For the body it means that the body decays and becomes dust in the ground. God made the body out of dust and at death it returns to dust. The soul however is spirit. Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist.
So you said the body decays and becomes dust at death. In contrast, the soul is eternal and cannot cease to exist - the implication being that the body does cease to exist.

Worse than making a mistake is when someone can't own up to it. Dodgy

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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30-09-2013, 04:13 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(29-09-2013 02:15 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-09-2013 06:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Oh really. And where have I said anything different to this?

Seriously...? Rolleyes

(22-09-2013 05:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  For the body it means that the body decays and becomes dust in the ground. God made the body out of dust and at death it returns to dust. The soul however is spirit. Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist.
So you said the body decays and becomes dust at death. In contrast, the soul is eternal and cannot cease to exist - the implication being that the body does cease to exist.

Worse than making a mistake is when someone can't own up to it. Dodgy
Huh? What a load of illogical rubbish. At death the body decays and becomes dust and the eternal soul returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the body is raised up whole again and the soul is placed back into it. I should know what I have always believed. What you reckon that you pointing out the churches teaching has made me go ooops and change my beliefs. You are really mixed up if you think that I have said anything different to this at any point.
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30-09-2013, 06:48 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(30-09-2013 04:13 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(29-09-2013 02:15 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Seriously...? Rolleyes

So you said the body decays and becomes dust at death. In contrast, the soul is eternal and cannot cease to exist - the implication being that the body does cease to exist.

Worse than making a mistake is when someone can't own up to it. Dodgy
Huh? What a load of illogical rubbish. At death the body decays and becomes dust and the eternal soul returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the body is raised up whole again and the soul is placed back into it. I should know what I have always believed. What you reckon that you pointing out the churches teaching has made me go ooops and change my beliefs. You are really mixed up if you think that I have said anything different to this at any point.

I picked that up from them. Isn't that cute. "Rubbish". I love saying "rubbish".

He's going to "apostraphe" hell.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-09-2013, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2013 09:06 AM by Impulse.)
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(30-09-2013 04:13 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(29-09-2013 02:15 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Seriously...? Rolleyes

So you said the body decays and becomes dust at death. In contrast, the soul is eternal and cannot cease to exist - the implication being that the body does cease to exist.

Worse than making a mistake is when someone can't own up to it. Dodgy
Huh? What a load of illogical rubbish. At death the body decays and becomes dust and the eternal soul returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the body is raised up whole again and the soul is placed back into it. I should know what I have always believed. What you reckon that you pointing out the churches teaching has made me go ooops and change my beliefs. You are really mixed up if you think that I have said anything different to this at any point.

It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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01-10-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 04:13 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Huh? What a load of illogical rubbish. At death the body decays and becomes dust and the eternal soul returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the body is raised up whole again and the soul is placed back into it. I should know what I have always believed. What you reckon that you pointing out the churches teaching has made me go ooops and change my beliefs. You are really mixed up if you think that I have said anything different to this at any point.

It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
I do not need to talk to the priest. I have been a bible student for 30 years. I spent 1000's of hours studying the teachings of the Catholic church before I converted to Catholicism.

Go and read the catechism yourself before making absurd and ridiculous claims about what the church does or does not teach.

As I said in previous posts.
The body is not eternal, it is mortal and becomes dust after death, but at the resurrection it will be raised as an eternal body. The eternal body reunited at the resurrection with the soul. That is what I always said.

Now to verify what the church teaches here is the catechism. Read it please.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...123a11.htm
Recognising your laziness I will save you the trouble of reading the whole section and copy out a couple of the most relevant paragraphs.
The catechism says:
989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535

990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537

"1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570"
and
1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.

I will leave the reasonable man to determine whether or not have I stated exactly what the church teaches. In other words, you will all lash out with mutual confirmations that I do not teach what my own church teaches, because you are not reasonable people, but are horribly twisted by your bias against all that is religious and holy.
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01-10-2013, 04:13 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(01-10-2013 04:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
I do not need to talk to the priest. I have been a bible student for 30 years. I spent 1000's of hours studying the teachings of the Catholic church before I converted to Catholicism.

Go and read the catechism yourself before making absurd and ridiculous claims about what the church does or does not teach.

As I said in previous posts.
The body is not eternal, it is mortal and becomes dust after death, but at the resurrection it will be raised as an eternal body. The eternal body reunited at the resurrection with the soul. That is what I always said.

Now to verify what the church teaches here is the catechism. Read it please.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...123a11.htm
Recognising your laziness I will save you the trouble of reading the whole section and copy out a couple of the most relevant paragraphs.
The catechism says:
989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535

990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537

"1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570"
and
1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.

I will leave the reasonable man to determine whether or not have I stated exactly what the church teaches. In other words, you will all lash out with mutual confirmations that I do not teach what my own church teaches, because you are not reasonable people, but are horribly twisted by your bias against all that is religious and holy.

Oh like the two egregious errors he made, and were pointed out to him in the "holier than thou thread".
I also have no doubt he knows more than his parish priest does. However knowing a tiny more than nothing , is still nothing.
A fool convinced of his certitude, is still a fool.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-10-2013, 04:22 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 04:13 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Huh? What a load of illogical rubbish. At death the body decays and becomes dust and the eternal soul returns to God who gave it. At the resurrection the body is raised up whole again and the soul is placed back into it. I should know what I have always believed. What you reckon that you pointing out the churches teaching has made me go ooops and change my beliefs. You are really mixed up if you think that I have said anything different to this at any point.

It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
Please provide evidence that the church formerly taught the faithful not to be cremated so as to honour the church doctrine that we need to take care of our body while we are still living. What rubbish. Where do you get this stuff?

The reason cremation was formerly forbidden because this was the practice of the heathen and certain mockers of the belief in the resurrection scattered the ashes of the martyrs as a denial of this pivotal christian belief.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CREMATE.HTM

Today cremation is allowed by the church for practical reasons of expense and shortage of burial plots, provided that this does not constitute any denial of the resurrection of the body. Also the scattering of ashes is prohibited.

Here is another excellent article on the Catholic teaching of the respectful interment of the human body after death
http://www.ccaw.org/about_cremation.html
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01-10-2013, 04:35 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2013 04:54 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(01-10-2013 04:22 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
Please provide evidence that the church formerly taught the faithful not to be cremated so as to honour the church doctrine that we need to take care of our body while we are still living. What rubbish. Where do you get this stuff?

The reason cremation was formerly forbidden because this was the practice of the heathen and certain mockers of the belief in the resurrection scattered the ashes of the martyrs as a denial of this pivotal christian belief.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CREMATE.HTM

Today cremation is allowed by the church for practical reasons of expense and shortage of burial plots, provided that this does not constitute any denial of the resurrection of the body. Also the scattering of ashes is prohibited.

Here is another excellent article on the Catholic teaching of the respectful interment of the human body after death
http://www.ccaw.org/about_cremation.html

More proof of his ignorance.
The old code of Canon Law was changed in 1917.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P48.HTM
Please keep it up excubitor. Every day, you look more and more foolish.

In "Piam et Constantem" in 1963 church clarified this regulation.
The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (then called the "Holy Office") issued an instruction :
“The constant pious practice among Christians, of burying the bodies of the faithful departed, has always been the object of
solicitude on the part of the Church, shown both by providing it with appropriate rites to express clearly
the symbolic and religious significance of burial, and by establishing penalties against those who attacked
this salutary practice.
” The Church permitted cremation in cases of necessity, but prohibited it for anyone
who was making a stand against the faith.
http://www.olgchurch.net/documents/Crema...Church.pdf

Maybe go "do" a rosary, or 3, and ask for a teensy weensy bit more "enlightenment". Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-10-2013, 05:42 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(01-10-2013 04:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-10-2013 04:22 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Please provide evidence that the church formerly taught the faithful not to be cremated so as to honour the church doctrine that we need to take care of our body while we are still living. What rubbish. Where do you get this stuff?

The reason cremation was formerly forbidden because this was the practice of the heathen and certain mockers of the belief in the resurrection scattered the ashes of the martyrs as a denial of this pivotal christian belief.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CREMATE.HTM

Today cremation is allowed by the church for practical reasons of expense and shortage of burial plots, provided that this does not constitute any denial of the resurrection of the body. Also the scattering of ashes is prohibited.

Here is another excellent article on the Catholic teaching of the respectful interment of the human body after death
http://www.ccaw.org/about_cremation.html

More proof of his ignorance.
The old code of Canon Law was changed in 1917.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P48.HTM
Please keep it up excubitor. Every day, you look more and more foolish.

In "Piam et Constantem" in 1963 church clarified this regulation.
The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (then called the "Holy Office") issued an instruction :
“The constant pious practice among Christians, of burying the bodies of the faithful departed, has always been the object of
solicitude on the part of the Church, shown both by providing it with appropriate rites to express clearly
the symbolic and religious significance of burial, and by establishing penalties against those who attacked
this salutary practice.
” The Church permitted cremation in cases of necessity, but prohibited it for anyone
who was making a stand against the faith.
http://www.olgchurch.net/documents/Crema...Church.pdf

Maybe go "do" a rosary, or 3, and ask for a teensy weensy bit more "enlightenment". Tongue



Seriously, this level of rope-a-dope is on par with watching 80's Schwarzenegger take on a paraplegic in a rousing game of tether ball...


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