[split] excubitor vs deconversion
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01-10-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(17-09-2013 04:46 PM)BradleyPride Wrote:  I have always found it predictably entertaining to see theists absolutely positive that everyone"really knows in their heart" that God is waiting in the wings and we are just wanting an excuse to engage in debauchery and fornication. Kind of depressing really. For someone with such a great excuse for debauchery and fornication I pretty much never engage in it. I feel like I am getting ripped off.....

Yet you're thinking of doing so. Does thinking about it support your argument?
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07-10-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(01-10-2013 04:22 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
Please provide evidence that the church formerly taught the faithful not to be cremated so as to honour the church doctrine that we need to take care of our body while we are still living. What rubbish. Where do you get this stuff?

The reason cremation was formerly forbidden because this was the practice of the heathen and certain mockers of the belief in the resurrection scattered the ashes of the martyrs as a denial of this pivotal christian belief.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CREMATE.HTM

Today cremation is allowed by the church for practical reasons of expense and shortage of burial plots, provided that this does not constitute any denial of the resurrection of the body. Also the scattering of ashes is prohibited.

Here is another excellent article on the Catholic teaching of the respectful interment of the human body after death
http://www.ccaw.org/about_cremation.html

30 years of Bible study, huh? Maybe you should try some other sources since that doesn't seem to be working for you very well...

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/...lLsW1MWpmI

Quote:Church authorities banned the practice of cremation centuries ago to counter the ancient Roman practice of cremating the body as a rejection of the existence of an afterlife. Scripture teaches that man is made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27), and therefore the body must be respected in both this life and the next. The body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, must be treated with respect.
So, you see, cremation was considered treating the body with disrespect.

The article also states that the ban was lifted in 1963. So it wasn't very long ago that cremation was considered acceptable by the Catholic church.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-10-2013, 11:50 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(01-10-2013 04:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 08:52 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It may be what you have always believed, but it isn't what the church teaches. How is the body to be raised up whole if it has decayed into dust..? You honestly think that's logical? Have you never heard the doctrine that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? The Catholic church teaches that, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and because it will one day be reunited with your soul, you are to take the best care of your body while you are living. What would be the point of that if it is only to become decayed dust when you die? Go talk to your priest and you will see that I'm right. I'm not suggesting that you change your beliefs, but that you at least learn what those beliefs are before you go around preaching so sanctimoniously.

Regardless, the way you wrote your original statement clearly implies that the soul is eternal while the body is not.

Edit:
By the way, what I said above about taking care of your body is also why the Catholic church originally banned cremation and still generally discourages it. If you're dead already and your body is going to become dust anyway, how would being against cremation make sense from your viewpoint?
I do not need to talk to the priest. I have been a bible student for 30 years. I spent 1000's of hours studying the teachings of the Catholic church before I converted to Catholicism.

Go and read the catechism yourself before making absurd and ridiculous claims about what the church does or does not teach.

As I said in previous posts.
The body is not eternal, it is mortal and becomes dust after death, but at the resurrection it will be raised as an eternal body. The eternal body reunited at the resurrection with the soul. That is what I always said.

Now to verify what the church teaches here is the catechism. Read it please.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...123a11.htm
Recognising your laziness I will save you the trouble of reading the whole section and copy out a couple of the most relevant paragraphs.
The catechism says:
989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535

990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537

"1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570"
and
1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.

I will leave the reasonable man to determine whether or not have I stated exactly what the church teaches. In other words, you will all lash out with mutual confirmations that I do not teach what my own church teaches, because you are not reasonable people, but are horribly twisted by your bias against all that is religious and holy.
I will retract one thing that I said. My Catholic studies were almost 30 years ago so I'm pulling from memory and did make one error. I, for one, am not above admitting it.

Contrary to what I had said, Catholics do believe that the body returns to dust ("from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust"). While this makes absolutely no sense to me that the body becomes dust and is later reunited with the soul, it is nevertheless what the church teaches. I guess it's another one of those "miracles" the church is so fond of claiming.

Regardless, let me again remind you what you said that started this part of the discussion:
(22-09-2013 05:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  For the body it means that the body decays and becomes dust in the ground. God made the body out of dust and at death it returns to dust. The soul however is spirit. Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist.

It is you who treated the body and soul differently in your discussion of them with respect to eternity. The fact that you now want to claim you said nothing contrary to the body also existing for eternity and provide your catechism as evidence, is dishonest and just shows you know how to use Google. Drinking Beverage

Let me explain the English language to you. "However" means "on the other hand" meaning that the soul is differently treated than the body. That does not contradict Catholic teaching which says the body returns to dust and the soul does not. So far, so good. Then you said "Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist." What was the point of that statement except to explain why souls do not become dust like bodies do? So, in order to become dust, it has to be something that is not eternal. That's the implication in plain English. Therefore, the bodies are not eternal. THAT is what you said by implication. I don't see how any other interpretation is possible. Deny it all you want, but it's plain English.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-10-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(19-09-2013 09:20 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If grief and heart felt pouring does not exist after death then why do you care about it now? Is it all about holding each others hand as you hurtle toward the grave. Why not tell the suffering sod to top themselves and then that will stop their grief. That is your message. Lovers in despair make suicide pacts. Great system if there is no resurrection and no judgement.

But I say that suicide is a literally mortal sin and that in your next waking moment you will face the living God who will ask an account of why you treated with such disdain the life that he gave you. So do not top yourselves. Rather, console one another as the day of our Lord's appearing approaches.

I am sick and fucking tired of this goddamn bullshit (I'm very sorry, but this makes me VERY angry). The idea that if all suffering and all pain ends at death that I should kill myself to stop the agony, since there is nothing more, no punishment for such action. Why must I believe in an afterlife to make my life worth living? To live because I fear punishment if I end it? What kind of masochist would want that?

I do not fear death. I do not welcome it, but I do not fear it. I do not waste my time quivering in my bed or in a goddamn pew praying that my death will not come, or that it will simply be a temporary inconvenience like John Dunne's poem. Rather can I not enjoy each breath, each beat of my heart, each moment of my life? I do not want to avoid death, I wish TO LIVE. It is startling to see the number of people who don't see the distinction. Would I trade the feeling of the blood in my ears as I ran down the Nantahala river? Would I trade the view from the top of a canyon mouth? Would I trade the look in my husband's eyes on our wedding day? Would I trade the moment when I finally grasp a problem or an equation? Would I trade all of this for some vague promise that I might live forever if I just live on my knees?

No.

I will not live for death, or for the fear of it. I will live for life. For MY life. Because it is precious. You say it has no meaning? Who cares. I do not need a meaning beyond my own self and happiness. I do not come here to quiver in fear, I come to rejoice in my own mind. I come to see others who do not live with blinders on. I come to see those who live standing tall, and unafraid.

Do not speak of the death worshiping that so many do as holy. Do not imply that our rejection of it is a weakness. We wish to live. We do not concern ourselves with our death, but spend our time celebrating our lives.

"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet." Emily Dickenson.
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08-10-2013, 02:14 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(07-10-2013 11:29 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(01-10-2013 04:22 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Please provide evidence that the church formerly taught the faithful not to be cremated so as to honour the church doctrine that we need to take care of our body while we are still living. What rubbish. Where do you get this stuff?

The reason cremation was formerly forbidden because this was the practice of the heathen and certain mockers of the belief in the resurrection scattered the ashes of the martyrs as a denial of this pivotal christian belief.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CREMATE.HTM

Today cremation is allowed by the church for practical reasons of expense and shortage of burial plots, provided that this does not constitute any denial of the resurrection of the body. Also the scattering of ashes is prohibited.

Here is another excellent article on the Catholic teaching of the respectful interment of the human body after death
http://www.ccaw.org/about_cremation.html

30 years of Bible study, huh? Maybe you should try some other sources since that doesn't seem to be working for you very well...

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/...lLsW1MWpmI

Quote:Church authorities banned the practice of cremation centuries ago to counter the ancient Roman practice of cremating the body as a rejection of the existence of an afterlife. Scripture teaches that man is made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27), and therefore the body must be respected in both this life and the next. The body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, must be treated with respect.
So, you see, cremation was considered treating the body with disrespect.

The article also states that the ban was lifted in 1963. So it wasn't very long ago that cremation was considered acceptable by the Catholic church.
I'm not sure what your point is. I don't disagree with anything that is in the linked article.

Nor has the church changed. It is a response to changing norms of society where culturally cremation is no longer associated with the disbelieving pagans who deny the resurrection. Today cremation is done for pragmatic reasons based on cost and lack of space in cemeteries.

In times gone by cremation was also practiced for pragmatic reasons such as during the bubonic plague when it was necessary for hygiene reasons and impossible task of burying so many dead people all at once to cremate the bodies.

So there is no substantial change in belief and practice at all. In all eras what is constant in Catholic teaching and practice is that honour must be given to the remains of the body. This is made clear in the article. The affirmation of the resurrection of the body when Jesus Christ returns is a common theme and a comfort for those who attend the place where the ashes are interred.

The thing is that Catholics do not live by the letter of the law. So the letter of the law might have been applicable in one generation but not required in another generation. What does not change though is the spirit and intent of the law which is to respect the body and confess the resurrection to life.

I believe in the Holy Catholic church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sin, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. Amen.
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08-10-2013, 02:26 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(01-10-2013 04:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I do not need to talk to the priest. I have been a bible student for 30 years. I spent 1000's of hours studying the teachings of the Catholic church before I converted to Catholicism.

Go and read the catechism yourself before making absurd and ridiculous claims about what the church does or does not teach.

As I said in previous posts.
The body is not eternal, it is mortal and becomes dust after death, but at the resurrection it will be raised as an eternal body. The eternal body reunited at the resurrection with the soul. That is what I always said.

Now to verify what the church teaches here is the catechism. Read it please.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...123a11.htm
Recognising your laziness I will save you the trouble of reading the whole section and copy out a couple of the most relevant paragraphs.
The catechism says:
989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535

990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537

"1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570"
and
1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.

I will leave the reasonable man to determine whether or not have I stated exactly what the church teaches. In other words, you will all lash out with mutual confirmations that I do not teach what my own church teaches, because you are not reasonable people, but are horribly twisted by your bias against all that is religious and holy.
I will retract one thing that I said. My Catholic studies were almost 30 years ago so I'm pulling from memory and did make one error. I, for one, am not above admitting it.
Not often I find someone coming back and admitting error. Shows that you are a person of character.

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Contrary to what I had said, Catholics do believe that the body returns to dust ("from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust"). While this makes absolutely no sense to me that the body becomes dust and is later reunited with the soul, it is nevertheless what the church teaches. I guess it's another one of those "miracles" the church is so fond of claiming.
What kind of resurrection of the body were you imagining that was not a "miracle"?

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regardless, let me again remind you what you said that started this part of the discussion:
(22-09-2013 05:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  For the body it means that the body decays and becomes dust in the ground. God made the body out of dust and at death it returns to dust. The soul however is spirit. Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist.

It is you who treated the body and soul differently in your discussion of them with respect to eternity. The fact that you now want to claim you said nothing contrary to the body also existing for eternity and provide your catechism as evidence, is dishonest and just shows you know how to use Google. Drinking Beverage
You are obviously extremely confused. Where did I say that the body was not eternal. I never said any such thing. I utterly deny that the body is eternal.


(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Let me explain the English language to you. "However" means "on the other hand" meaning that the soul is differently treated than the body. That does not contradict Catholic teaching which says the body returns to dust and the soul does not. So far, so good. Then you said "Spiritual things are eternal and so they cannot cease to exist." What was the point of that statement except to explain why souls do not become dust like bodies do? So, in order to become dust, it has to be something that is not eternal. That's the implication in plain English. Therefore, the bodies are not eternal. THAT is what you said by implication. I don't see how any other interpretation is possible. Deny it all you want, but it's plain English.
I agree. The bodies are not eternal. The whole point of all my posts was to insist that the body is mortal, contrary to the soul which IS eternal. I was directly stating that the body is NOT eternal and is most certainly mortal.

Please where I ever claimed that the body is eternal. I said no such thing, implied no such thing and never even thought any such thing.
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08-10-2013, 03:32 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(07-10-2013 01:13 PM)natachan Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 09:20 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If grief and heart felt pouring does not exist after death then why do you care about it now? Is it all about holding each others hand as you hurtle toward the grave. Why not tell the suffering sod to top themselves and then that will stop their grief. That is your message. Lovers in despair make suicide pacts. Great system if there is no resurrection and no judgement.

But I say that suicide is a literally mortal sin and that in your next waking moment you will face the living God who will ask an account of why you treated with such disdain the life that he gave you. So do not top yourselves. Rather, console one another as the day of our Lord's appearing approaches.

I am sick and fucking tired of this goddamn bullshit (I'm very sorry, but this makes me VERY angry). The idea that if all suffering and all pain ends at death that I should kill myself to stop the agony, since there is nothing more, no punishment for such action. Why must I believe in an afterlife to make my life worth living? To live because I fear punishment if I end it? What kind of masochist would want that?
I'm really glad that you enjoy life. Good for you. However many people do not enjoy life. They hate every minute of it and are in utter despair and torment every waking moment. Even their dreams are tormented. They meditate on suicide thinking of all the ways they could end their life to escape the torment of living. My point, morbid I know and unsettling, is that death will not end this torment. This torment will only grow worse after suicide when the dead person comes up in the resurrection and must explain why they killed themself. They will then be thrust into eternal torment of hell.

I never implied that all suffering and pain ends at death. This is only true in the case of the Holy Saints who die in a state of grace with all their sins forgiven. Some of these pass directly into the bliss of heaven. Every Catholic has a certain amount of fear of purgatory. This fear is a good thing because it motivates us to do penance and confess our sins. This brings us closer to God and increased happiness in this life and in the next.


(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I do not fear death. I do not welcome it, but I do not fear it.
You will when that fateful day comes upon you and you have not made peace with your creator.

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I do not waste my time quivering in my bed or in a goddamn pew praying that my death will not come, or that it will simply be a temporary inconvenience like John Dunne's poem. Rather can I not enjoy each breath, each beat of my heart, each moment of my life? I do not want to avoid death, I wish TO LIVE. It is startling to see the number of people who don't see the distinction. Would I trade the feeling of the blood in my ears as I ran down the Nantahala river? Would I trade the view from the top of a canyon mouth? Would I trade the look in my husband's eyes on our wedding day? Would I trade the moment when I finally grasp a problem or an equation? Would I trade all of this for some vague promise that I might live forever if I just live on my knees?
No.
This is ridiculous and utterly absurd. God's way of life does not restrict us from any of these activities or pleasures of life. These are all good things that he wants for us.

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I will not live for death, or for the fear of it. I will live for life. For MY life. Because it is precious.
I am quite confident that all Catholics live also. To suggest that anybody lives for death is an utterly ridiculous oxymoron. Nobody does that, least of all Catholics. I live for life also. Truly ridiculous. Where do you get these perceptions of Catholics?

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You say it has no meaning? Who cares. I do not need a meaning beyond my own self and happiness. I do not come here to quiver in fear, I come to rejoice in my own mind. I come to see others who do not live with blinders on. I come to see those who live standing tall, and unafraid.
Do not speak of the death worshiping that so many do as holy. Do not imply that our rejection of it is a weakness. We wish to live. We do not concern ourselves with our death, but spend our time celebrating our lives.
I never said that your life had no meaning. What I might have said is that the doctrine of Evolution to which you adhere provides no meaning or purpose. Atheists do not get meaning for life or purpose for life from Evolution, they get it from various sources of their own choosing such as family, friends, hobbies, outdoor exertions, sight seeing. Catholics find far greater meaning and far greater purpose in serving God and living according to his ways, they see the meaning which comes from these family, friends, hobbies, outdoor exertions, sight seeing and other pursuits in the context of living holy and good lives serving God and man. God understands that this brings joy to those who live in this way. Whereas those who pursue earthly delights for their own sake eventually find diminishing joy from them and eventually all earthly delights become stale. Read the book of Ecclesiastes for proof that as the body ages and comes to its sunset years the enjoyments of life dim.

In the last days of life it is only the spiritual delights of communion with God that brings joy, life and light to those who serve him. This is wisdom and the man who comes to this knowledge in his youth is setting himself up for rejoicing in his old age. But the man who indulges his youth and takes pleasure in the material pursuits alone and for their own sake comes to dust and misery in his old age. He only thinks about all that he lost and once was in his youth, and has no hope or expectation of what he will be after the resurrection.

These are the words of the Teacher, wisest of us all who said
"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders [1] cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 3 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:1

What is he talking about? The wise will understand but for the atheists I will tell that he is talking about establishing a life of obedience and service to God, considering how he will judge every thought and every deed, whether it be good or evil. Take pleasure in your youth by all means, but it will pass away, and all that will be left as you lie in your death bed is the thought of how God will view your deeds and thought at the judgement. That is the fear of death that is the peril of the wicked. So remember your Creator in the days of your youth before the days of trouble come.

Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[/quote]
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08-10-2013, 05:12 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
The duty of man is to overcome his ignorant origins, not to revel in them.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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08-10-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
(08-10-2013 03:32 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(07-10-2013 01:13 PM)natachan Wrote:  I am sick and fucking tired of this goddamn bullshit (I'm very sorry, but this makes me VERY angry). The idea that if all suffering and all pain ends at death that I should kill myself to stop the agony, since there is nothing more, no punishment for such action. Why must I believe in an afterlife to make my life worth living? To live because I fear punishment if I end it? What kind of masochist would want that?
I'm really glad that you enjoy life. Good for you. However many people do not enjoy life. They hate every minute of it and are in utter despair and torment every waking moment. Even their dreams are tormented. They meditate on suicide thinking of all the ways they could end their life to escape the torment of living. My point, morbid I know and unsettling, is that death will not end this torment. This torment will only grow worse after suicide when the dead person comes up in the resurrection and must explain why they killed themself. They will then be thrust into eternal torment of hell.

I never implied that all suffering and pain ends at death. This is only true in the case of the Holy Saints who die in a state of grace with all their sins forgiven. Some of these pass directly into the bliss of heaven. Every Catholic has a certain amount of fear of purgatory. This fear is a good thing because it motivates us to do penance and confess our sins. This brings us closer to God and increased happiness in this life and in the next.


(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I do not fear death. I do not welcome it, but I do not fear it.
You will when that fateful day comes upon you and you have not made peace with your creator.

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I do not waste my time quivering in my bed or in a goddamn pew praying that my death will not come, or that it will simply be a temporary inconvenience like John Dunne's poem. Rather can I not enjoy each breath, each beat of my heart, each moment of my life? I do not want to avoid death, I wish TO LIVE. It is startling to see the number of people who don't see the distinction. Would I trade the feeling of the blood in my ears as I ran down the Nantahala river? Would I trade the view from the top of a canyon mouth? Would I trade the look in my husband's eyes on our wedding day? Would I trade the moment when I finally grasp a problem or an equation? Would I trade all of this for some vague promise that I might live forever if I just live on my knees?
No.
This is ridiculous and utterly absurd. God's way of life does not restrict us from any of these activities or pleasures of life. These are all good things that he wants for us.

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I will not live for death, or for the fear of it. I will live for life. For MY life. Because it is precious.
I am quite confident that all Catholics live also. To suggest that anybody lives for death is an utterly ridiculous oxymoron. Nobody does that, least of all Catholics. I live for life also. Truly ridiculous. Where do you get these perceptions of Catholics?

(07-10-2013 11:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You say it has no meaning? Who cares. I do not need a meaning beyond my own self and happiness. I do not come here to quiver in fear, I come to rejoice in my own mind. I come to see others who do not live with blinders on. I come to see those who live standing tall, and unafraid.
Do not speak of the death worshiping that so many do as holy. Do not imply that our rejection of it is a weakness. We wish to live. We do not concern ourselves with our death, but spend our time celebrating our lives.
I never said that your life had no meaning. What I might have said is that the doctrine of Evolution to which you adhere provides no meaning or purpose. Atheists do not get meaning for life or purpose for life from Evolution, they get it from various sources of their own choosing such as family, friends, hobbies, outdoor exertions, sight seeing. Catholics find far greater meaning and far greater purpose in serving God and living according to his ways, they see the meaning which comes from these family, friends, hobbies, outdoor exertions, sight seeing and other pursuits in the context of living holy and good lives serving God and man. God understands that this brings joy to those who live in this way. Whereas those who pursue earthly delights for their own sake eventually find diminishing joy from them and eventually all earthly delights become stale. Read the book of Ecclesiastes for proof that as the body ages and comes to its sunset years the enjoyments of life dim.

In the last days of life it is only the spiritual delights of communion with God that brings joy, life and light to those who serve him. This is wisdom and the man who comes to this knowledge in his youth is setting himself up for rejoicing in his old age. But the man who indulges his youth and takes pleasure in the material pursuits alone and for their own sake comes to dust and misery in his old age. He only thinks about all that he lost and once was in his youth, and has no hope or expectation of what he will be after the resurrection.

These are the words of the Teacher, wisest of us all who said
"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders [1] cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 3 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:1

What is he talking about? The wise will understand but for the atheists I will tell that he is talking about establishing a life of obedience and service to God, considering how he will judge every thought and every deed, whether it be good or evil. Take pleasure in your youth by all means, but it will pass away, and all that will be left as you lie in your death bed is the thought of how God will view your deeds and thought at the judgement. That is the fear of death that is the peril of the wicked. So remember your Creator in the days of your youth before the days of trouble come.

Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Excubitor, you have quoted "me" several times in this post, but none of those quotes are really from me. Please correct them and please be more careful.

I'll be back to answer your other replies to my actual posts later.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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08-10-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: [split] excubitor vs deconversion
No, I wrote them. And I stand behind my statements.
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