[split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
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01-07-2016, 02:06 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(29-06-2016 04:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm still a little confused on what your position is. How exactly do you relate to your creator? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a particular religion or have theology that's based on a particular religion?

Are you sure you are confused just a little Wink

It happens I can live as a free independent person only Sad
So it is impossible (or impractical, if you like) for me to join 'any' formal group; sportive, social, political or religious.

So I try not to say quickly all what I have in mind, even in a summary, to avoid chocking some people with things they never heard of or even imagined to hear someday... starting from the purpose of my existence... and what God means to me.

Lately I was banned, without getting any explanation of what I did wrong, from ChristForums. It seems, the banner, Mr William, couldn't bear my personal ideas anymore. He saw them, from his angle, as being dangerous to his forum more than all Atheist ideas he ever heard Wink

Truth be said, I became curious if my personal views could scare even the free intellectual people as Atheists. But I didn't start the main show yet Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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01-07-2016, 08:35 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(01-07-2016 01:28 PM)KerimF Wrote:  By the way, English is my 3rd language after French and, obviously, Arabic (since I was born and lived in Aleppo city, Syria).
And I am far from being a writer in any of the three because my mind tends being scientific... you know, I use working with numbers, symbols, equations and programming instructions... etc. since my graduation (40 years ago). I studied electronics so I was able starting and running a small private business as a designer of various controlling boards (that are usually needed by the local market in every period of time).

Thumbsup

Good for you for learning such skills. I'm still stuck at the basic two languages. English and bad English. Blush

I look forwards to your threads/talks/posts on your points of view.

Hug

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01-07-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(28-06-2016 07:22 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(28-06-2016 06:21 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  Noe have any existence , nor ever did. If you can give us any proof please do so.

Sorry I didn't get well what cannot exist in your life?

On my side, Allah of Islam cannot exist in my reality. I personally have no enemies to fear or fight (why? This is off topic now).
Also, God of Judaism cannot exist in my reality as well.
And God as worshipped by any Christian denomination in the world is real stranger to me (we have nothing in common).
In brief, any god who looks for followers/believers (hence a needy god) via some representatives on the tiny planet Earth doesn't mean anything to me. Also any god who has a set of rules to be applied on men looks to me as a little kid who is pleased playing with his toys.

But, truth be said, not all men need looking for their creative will/power in order to live happy and normal. In other words, those who believe that the purpose of their life is simply to serve, in a way or another, the world, they don't need to know any god, true or not, in the first place. But this doesn't prevent many people claiming they are believers of this or that god as long this helps them be famous and gain extra money, for a few Wink

Kerim
Sorry, My first word there was supposed to be "None" none have any existence. I used to type a lot better before i had a stroke a few years ago. But if you or anyone can give solid evidence for a God, any God, to exist I am sure that most atheists would turn into believers.
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01-07-2016, 08:55 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
G'day Kerim, and welcome. Smile

(28-06-2016 06:17 PM)KerimF Wrote:  But instead of being an Atheist and because I am a rational person (since I was a teen), I have searched independently my true Creator because I couldn't fool myself and say I made myself and the precise design of my human living flesh in the least was made by chance/chaos. [...]

Your "creation" wasn't made by chance or as a result of chaos (as I think you mean it). It was the result of one of your dad's spermatozoa impregnating one of your mum's ova. There's no need for any intervention by some supernatural entity.

Put simply, your parents created you.

And if you do actually believe in some sort of supernatural "creator", then you've yet to become an atheist.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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01-07-2016, 10:57 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(01-07-2016 08:53 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  Sorry, My first word there was supposed to be "None" none have any existence. I used to type a lot better before i had a stroke a few years ago. But if you or anyone can give solid evidence for a God, any God, to exist I am sure that most atheists would turn into believers.

Well, to me in the least since I am a rational man, the 'usefulness' of a concept/definition matters to me, not the 'existence' of its object. So let me give some examples:

I didn't mind working with the concept of 'geometrical dot' though, by definition, it cannot exist since it is a 'dimensionless' object.

I didn't mind working with the notion of 'infinity' though I can never reach it other than in my imagination perhaps. I use it to solve many 'real' problems.

I didn't mind working with imaginary numbers based on the imaginary unit "the square root of -1" that also doesn't exist in the real world. But these non-real numbers turn out to be useful in solving many problems and find their 'real' answers that can be applied on real projects.

If you get my point you would conclude that the existence of a God/Creator is not important to me but how this God could be useful in my life.

In fact, the formal believers (based on faith of any god) share the glory of men in their group, if not having better chances to also gain money and be famous; besides many extra bonuses (like finding a job or a partner... etc.). So it is out of question for them to split from their group as long they can take from it more than if they were in another one Wink

By the way, Atheism is also based on a belief that says: God doesn't exist. And this belief also helps many people to form their special groups but likely to a lesser extent than believers do. Believers have the advantage of having a certain well-defined idol to gather around Wink

Sorry, I think it is early to talk about the God I know Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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01-07-2016, 11:44 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(01-07-2016 08:55 PM)SYZ Wrote:  G'day Kerim, and welcome. Smile

Your "creation" wasn't made by chance or as a result of chaos (as I think you mean it). It was the result of one of your dad's spermatozoa impregnating one of your mum's ova. There's no need for any intervention by some supernatural entity.

Put simply, your parents created you.

And if you do actually believe in some sort of supernatural "creator", then you've yet to become an atheist.

I don't object saying that my parents created me. But how I can explain they are my creators while they cannot know me, I mean the way I am... the way I know myself.

For instance, Adam and Eve story (as all stories on what is known as the Old Testament) were very important to the kids of humanity (our ancient human ancestors). They 'were' necessary for them exactly as we teach our beloved little kids with stories suitable to their fresh body and mind. Such stories are intended to prepare the kids (of humanity or ours) to get later, when adults, the complete version (actually the most updated one) of any truth; scientific or else.

Even in science, we need giving incomplete (if not wrong) definitions in elementary schools. Here is an example:
"Two straights are said parallel if they don't intersect" is usually the first definition about parallelism.
A few years later, the little kids discover that, in space, two non-parallel straights can also have no common point. Naturally, the previous definition gets some extra words as: " and are on the same plane."
But at the university (perhaps a bit earlier), the perspective geometry is introduced for which the last version of this definition has to be expressed as:
"Two straights are said parallel if they intersect at infinity".
ALL three definitions could be seen as of the Word of Science. Although they are all about the same thing, they had to be different to suit the mind of the receptor.

If you get my point you would conclude that the way I see how I am created is surely not as described in the stories that were addressed to the kids of humanity Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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02-07-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(01-07-2016 10:57 PM)KerimF Wrote:  By the way, Atheism

Why are you capitalizing 'atheism'? Consider

Quote:is also based on a belief that says: God doesn't exist.

No, it's not. Not accepting theists' claims is not itself a belief.

Quote:And this belief also helps many people to form their special groups

What groups?

Quote:but likely to a lesser extent than believers do.

A much lesser extent since you haven't supported the first assertion.

Quote:Believers have the advantage of having a certain well-defined idol to gather around Wink

How is that an advantage?

Quote:Sorry, I think it is early to talk about the God I know Wink

Why?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-07-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(02-07-2016 04:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why are you capitalizing 'atheism'? Consider

Please tell me, why I shouldn't?
I used capitalizing special words to distinguish them from common ones.

Quote:No, it's not. Not accepting theists' claims is not itself a belief.

Sorry, I call whatever can characterise the thinking of a person as a sort of belief.
For example, when I talk to an Atheist (sorry... atheist Wink ) I assume he believes that theist's claims are not valid to him.

Quote:What groups?

Thank you for the good news. Based on your knowledge/experience, it seems that every atheist in the world lives as I do... a free independent person Wink
Unfortunately, a formal believer in any man-made god has no right to be so.

Quote:I: Believers have the advantage of having a certain well-defined idol to gather around Wink

You: How is that an advantage?

They have the same advantage that the troops of an army, gathering around a well-defined flag, have.

Quote:I: Sorry, I think it is early to talk about the God I know Wink

You: Why?

It is early because, as you said:
[1] I shouldn't capitalizing the word Atheism and Atheist.
[2] I shouldn't use the word belief when someone believes an idea (or its inverse) based on reason; like the belief in Science
[3] I don't know yet what a typical Atheist may have discovered about his being (his living flesh) and the world (anything that could affect his living flesh externally) in order for him to live his temporary journey in what we may call "the Light of Knowledge".
[4] I am not sure yet if Atheists are gathered around a certain flag (as: "I don't know") or not. And perhaps there are many flags or not even one.

In other words, it is early because I am not addressing here just one person but all sorts of people who have different priorities in life. And most of them, if not all, have already found the best paths to live their priorities... as I did Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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02-07-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(02-07-2016 05:33 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 04:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why are you capitalizing 'atheism'? Consider

Please tell me, why I shouldn't?
I used capitalizing special words to distinguish them from common ones.

Neither 'atheist' nor 'atheiam' is a proper noun.

Quote:
Quote:No, it's not. Not accepting theists' claims is not itself a belief.

Sorry, I call whatever can characterise the thinking of a person as a sort of belief.

Lack of belief is no sort of belief.

Quote:For example, when I talk to an Atheist (sorry... atheist Wink ) I assume he believes that theist's claims are not valid to him.

You can bank on it as that is the definition of 'atheist'. Facepalm

Quote:
Quote:What groups?

Thank you for the good news. Based on your knowledge/experience, it seems that every atheist in the world lives as I do... a free independent person Wink
Unfortunately, a formal believer in any man-made god has no right to be so.

I strongly suggest that generalizing is not going to get you very far here.

Quote:
Quote:I: Believers have the advantage of having a certain well-defined idol to gather around Wink

You: How is that an advantage?

They have the same advantage that the troops of an army, gathering around a well-defined flag, have.

That was a non-answer. Dodgy

Quote:
Quote:I: Sorry, I think it is early to talk about the God I know Wink

You: Why?

It is early because, as you said:
[1] I shouldn't capitalizing the word Atheism and Atheist.

What has that got to do with it?

Quote:[2] I shouldn't use the word belief when someone believes an idea (or its inverse) based on reason; like the belief in Science

What is belief in science (also not a proper noun)? Science is a methodology that works for discovering the nature of reality. Belief is unnecessary.

Quote:[3] I don't know yet what a typical Atheist may have discovered about his being (his living flesh) and the world (anything that could affect his living flesh externally) in order for him to live his temporary journey in what we may call "the Light of Knowledge".

What, pray tell, is a typical atheist?

Quote:[4] I am not sure yet if Atheists are gathered around a certain flag (as: "I don't know") or not. And perhaps there are many flags or not even one.

Back to generalizing?

Quote:In other words, it is early because I am not addressing here just one person but all sorts of people who have different priorities in life. And most of them, if not all, have already found the best paths to live their priorities... as I did Wink

Again, what has that to do with it?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2016, 03:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 03:30 AM by KerimF.)
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
Quote:I: Please tell me, why I shouldn't?
I used capitalizing special words to distinguish them from common ones.

Chas: Neither 'atheist' nor 'atheism' is a proper noun.

Sorry Chas, I didn't believe in supernatural rulers to follow earthly ones Wink
But if I hurt you really for not following, as you do, the man-made languages and their grammar, please be clear and let me know. I also try to be careful when I talk to radical fanatic Muslims, for example, because they are also hurt if someone don't follow the specific language style by which their god decided to contact 'all' his human creatures on earth Wink

Quote:I: Sorry, I call whatever can characterise the thinking of a person as a sort of belief.

Chas: Lack of belief is no sort of belief.

Well, I also respect your belief that says: "Lack of belief is no sort of belief" Wink
True Knowledge is not about playing with right and wrong words but it is about ideas that could be applied in one's life.

Quote:I: For example, when I talk to an Atheist (sorry... atheist Wink ) I assume he believes that theist's claims are not valid to him.

Chas: You can bank on it as that is the definition of 'atheist'. Facepalm

But I am not sure yet what could be the positive claims of a typical atheist... starting from you Wink
I used hearing the negative ones only.

Quote:I: Thank you for the good news. Based on your knowledge/experience, it seems that every atheist in the world lives as I do... a free independent person Wink
Unfortunately, a formal believer in any man-made god has no right to be so.

Chas: I strongly suggest that generalizing is not going to get you very far here.

Generalizing about what?

Quote:I: They have the same advantage that the troops of an army, gathering around a well-defined flag, have.

Chas: That was a non-answer. Dodgy

Sorry, it is an answer to me...
An army (even a terrorist one) cannot be built without a well-defined flag. And as long someone respects this flag and serve its followers deserve the privileges offered by its top officers
The same applies on forming any formal group of believers but, in most recent cases, the main flag is replaced by a holy book (if not books) while the officers are replaced by those who claim being the honourable representatives of the god that inspired the holy book.

Quote:I: It is early because, as you said:
[1] I shouldn't capitalizing the word Atheism and Atheist.

Chas: What has that got to do with it?

If we have to talk about when words should be capitalized or not, do you really think it is wise, while we are in this stage, to talk about life? Wink

Quote:I: [2] I shouldn't use the word belief when someone believes an idea (or its inverse) based on reason; like the belief in Science

Chas: What is belief in science (also not a proper noun)? Science is a methodology that works for discovering the nature of reality. Belief is unnecessary.

Sorry, I should remember not to capitalize non-proper nouns anytime I have a doubt that you may read my post Wink
Yes. Science is a methodology that works for discovering the nature of 'my reality' (also yours, if you want to).
It is not my fault that the set of the action/reaction rules that define 'my being' (the being I am made of) is not completely similar to the one of your being, if not the being of anyone else.
The proof is that while we are both very intelligent beings (even if you see me ignorant or stupid) we surely have different priorities in life and therefore we have to walk on different paths as well. For example, one of my priorities didn't allow me to get married. I bet you can never guess it (unless you already read a post I wrote about it).

Quote:I: [3] I don't know yet what a typical Atheist may have discovered about his being (his living flesh) and the world (anything that could affect his living flesh externally) in order for him to live his temporary journey in what we may call "the Light of Knowledge".

Chas: What, pray tell, is a typical atheist?

Sorry, the expression "pray tell" is new to me Sad

Quote:I: [4] I am not sure yet if Atheists are gathered around a certain flag (as: "I don't know") or not. And perhaps there are many flags or not even one.

Chas: Back to generalizing?

You are right. I tend to believe that there are also different sects among atheists as it is the case among theists (or followers of certain general belief)

Quote:I: In other words, it is early because I am not addressing here just one person but all sorts of people who have different priorities in life. And most of them, if not all, have already found the best paths to live their priorities... as I did Wink

Chas: Again, what has that to do with it?

For example, you are personally not interested even in the little I said so far. This has nothing to do with intelligence. It seems from how you react with me, you are pleased in viewing the world from a totally different angle from mine and this is exactly what I mean. Please let us not forget that many others are neither like you nor me Wink

I recall now what happened to me with a taxi driver a decade ago.
To pass the time, I started exploring the international events that hit the world and the parts of their stories that are deliberately hidden by all systems (Men on Top); the political and religious ones in the world. The journey took about an hour. And while the subjects I was presenting to him could get the attention of any person, our dear driver seemed living in another space. Then and before a few minutes to reach the place I was going to, I told him why I didn't get married and my lack of interest in having sex with anyone. He suddenly stopped the car (after turning right of course) and look at me:
"Do you mean you lived without wives in your life and you think you do live!!! I have four (he was Muslim) and I am not totally satisfied to have just four wives during my entire life. Fortunately I can divorce and get legitimately new ones anytime I feel the need."
So I promised him to look for a wife as soon I leave his taxi Bowing Smile
The end was simple... we (the driver and I) continued our life the way we used to based on the nature we are made of.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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