[split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-07-2016, 04:37 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
Kerim -

It's just an expression... "pray tell" would be "dîtez-moi, je vous prie". I am sure many of our idioms will be strange to you. Worry not! Smile

I understand your analogy, but we are not building an army-- a running joke among us is that trying to organize atheists would be like "herding cats", because we are so independent-minded.

Atheist just literally means "not a theist". We are just people who think all the stories about gods are false. We technically have nothing else in common, other than no religious prejudices that prevent us from accepting discoveries made via the scientific method, which seems to be an issue for many theists. If you make any sort of blanket statement about who we are or what we believe, except to say we are nonbelievers in god-stories, then you are wrong. It is as simple as that.

I am fond of the expression, "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen F Roberts)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
03-07-2016, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 08:00 AM by unfogged.)
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 03:11 AM)KerimF Wrote:  But I am not sure yet what could be the positive claims of a typical atheist...

It depends on what you mean by that.

All that is required to be an atheist is to not accept that the claim "a god exists" is true. If I tell you that I do not believe that leprechauns are real does that tell you anything about what I do believe? What are the positive claims of the typical person who does not believe that there is a Loch Ness monster?

If you want to know what people think about various topics then ask about those topics.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
03-07-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 04:37 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Kerim -

It's just an expression... "pray tell" would be "dîtez-moi, je vous prie". I am sure many of our idioms will be strange to you. Worry not! Smile

Thank you. Translating it to French makes it very clear.
I like adding that I was a bit confused seeing an atheist using an idiom that includes the verb "to pray" which is one of the most favourite verbs to theists Wink

I think you also gave a practical clear definition of what being an atheist is supposed to mean.

Now, I wonder how could we call a person who doesn't believe in supernatural rulers (usually called gods) and in earthly ones as well (of ANY system). In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes KerimF's post
03-07-2016, 10:39 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Now, I wonder how could we call a person who doesn't believe in supernatural rulers (usually called gods) and in earthly ones as well (of ANY system). In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

You are equivocating on the use of the word belief. If somebody does not believe in "earthly rulers" or man-made laws in the same way that they do not believe in supernatural rulers or god-given laws then they are just wrong. There is a great deal of evidence for the former.

Disagreeing with man-made systems or refusing to abide by them is a completely different subject than not believing they exist.

Depending on just what you mean, you seem to be equivocating on the definition of 'evolved' as well.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like unfogged's post
03-07-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

He (or she) would be labelled an "outlaw".

We have evolved to live in societies. With that has come various forms of a Social Contract with different manifestations of The Leviathan.

Those who do not accept this contract are not more or less evolved. Every existing species has had exactly the same time-frame in which to evolve... just with differing results.

Smile

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like DLJ's post
03-07-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 03:11 AM)KerimF Wrote:  But I am not sure yet what could be the positive claims of a typical atheist...

It depends on what you mean by that.

All that is required to be an atheist is to not accept that the claim "a god exists" is true. If I tell you that I do not believe that leprechauns are real does that tell you anything about what I do believe? What are the positive claims of the typical person who does not believe that there is a Loch Ness monster?

If you want to know what people think about various topics then ask about those topics.

I wonder if also the personal spirituality (I mean what could be perceived by some humans as being in contradiction to/with their instincts) doesn't exist in/to an atheist.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:58 AM)KerimF Wrote:  I wonder if also the personal spirituality (I mean what could be perceived by some humans as being in contradiction to/with their instincts) doesn't exist in/to an atheist.

Sorry, I don't speak woo. What is 'personal spirituality'? What do you mean by perceiving something to be in contradiction to instincts?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
03-07-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 04:37 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Kerim -

It's just an expression... "pray tell" would be "dîtez-moi, je vous prie". I am sure many of our idioms will be strange to you. Worry not! Smile

Thank you. Translating it to French makes it very clear.
I like adding that I was a bit confused seeing an atheist using an idiom that includes the verb "to pray" which is one of the most favourite verbs to theists Wink

I think you also gave a practical clear definition of what being an atheist is supposed to mean.

Now, I wonder how could we call a person who doesn't believe in supernatural rulers (usually called gods) and in earthly ones as well (of ANY system). In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

You're welcome. I'm a half-Cajun, from Louisiana, so I spoke a bit of French in my childhood. Many English phrases originate from French, because of the Norman invasion in 1066, which altered both the German-based "Old English" language and added many expressions to our lexicon.

As to your question, someone who believes in gods in general is a "theist". One who believes in a Creator of the Universe who does not feel the need to intervene in that Creation is a "Deist".

DLJ already covered what my response to the "more evolved" part would have been.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
03-07-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:39 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Now, I wonder how could we call a person who doesn't believe in supernatural rulers (usually called gods) and in earthly ones as well (of ANY system). In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

You are equivocating on the use of the word belief. If somebody does not believe in "earthly rulers" or man-made laws in the same way that they do not believe in supernatural rulers or god-given laws then they are just wrong. There is a great deal of evidence for the former.

Disagreeing with man-made systems or refusing to abide by them is a completely different subject than not believing they exist.

Depending on just what you mean, you seem to be equivocating on the definition of 'evolved' as well.

Let me re-phrase this point.
A person who is rejecting the existence of a supernatural king is actually rejecting his so-called representatives on earth who gave themselves the right to apply the heaven justice (as they see it) on men.
But, since a few centuries, the most powerful/rich families in the world knew how to give themselves the right to rule their masses (though behind the scenes and via their hired politicians, local or abroad, also said elected or not).
Now, every person could be driven by a so-called heavenly rules or men's justice, if not by both.
But it is all about trust. The time a person trusts, for one reason or another, a system (religious or political) he becomes a believer in the system he chose... therefore having a hope that his system will help him realize his dreams.

In my case, I don't trust ANY ruler (supernatural or not) because I discovered that every LAW (applied on men) has to be approved by the high society to better control its men on bottom (who are classified lately as cheep for milk and cheep to be slaughtered). But I am not against these ruling systems (also political or religious which are two faces of the same penny, to me in the least) because most men need to be organized by rules as ants and bees need organizing themselves in their colonies based on their instincts.

So believing in the existence of a god is also trusting those who rule in his name.
And believing in a notion as democracy is also trusting those who rule in its name.
And each of these rulers is very important to 'his' believers/people (theists/atheists).

On my side, whoever is important in my life is surely not a ruler of any kind Wink
Also whatever is important in my life is surely not a system of any sort Wink

So even I am not an atheist, a god having a law to be applied on men cannot exist in my reality. I mean not just atheists say "God doesn't exist" Tongue

For instance, did anyone hear of a god that has no rules to be followed by men?
Thank you.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 12:31 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Let me re-phrase this point.
A person who is rejecting the existence of a supernatural king is actually rejecting his so-called representatives on earth who gave themselves the right to apply the heaven justice (as they see it) on men.
But, since a few centuries, the most powerful/rich families in the world knew how to give themselves the right to rule their masses (though behind the scenes and via their hired politicians, local or abroad, also said elected or not).
Now, every person could be driven by a so-called heavenly rules or men's justice, if not by both.
But it is all about trust. The time a person trusts, for one reason or another, a system (religious or political) he becomes a believer in the system he chose... therefore having a hope that his system will help him realize his dreams.

In my case, I don't trust ANY ruler (supernatural or not) because I discovered that every LAW (applied on men) has to be approved by the high society to better control its men on bottom (who are classified lately as cheep for milk and cheep to be slaughtered). But I am not against these ruling systems (also political or religious which are two faces of the same penny, to me in the least) because most men need to be organized by rules as ants and bees need organizing themselves in their colonies based on their instincts.

So believing in the existence of a god is also trusting those who rule in his name.
And believing in a notion as democracy is also trusting those who rule in its name.
And each of these rulers is very important to 'his' believers/people (theists/atheists).

On my side, whoever is important in my life is surely not a ruler of any kind Wink
Also whatever is important in my life is surely not a system of any sort Wink

So even I am not an atheist, a god having a law to be applied on men cannot exist in my reality. I mean not just atheists say "God doesn't exist" Tongue

For instance, did anyone hear of a god that has no rules to be followed by men?
Thank you.

If you don't believe in any gods, you are an atheist.

Declaration of Independence Wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The key phrase is 'consent of the governed'. That is democracy, not what you mislabel democracy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: