[split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-07-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 10:44 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

He (or she) would be labelled an "outlaw".

We have evolved to live in societies. With that has come various forms of a Social Contract with different manifestations of The Leviathan.

Those who do not accept this contract are not more or less evolved. Every existing species has had exactly the same time-frame in which to evolve... just with differing results.

Smile

T am afraid that how to live in societies is known even by the kids of humanity who were born many thousands years ago Wink
The part of it which is most evolved is how to deceive the masses, so that the men on bottom (civilians and troops) could be made to serve their rulers (high society) without complaining, if not with happiness and proud Smile

But, as I mentioned on a previous post, I see natural that most people in the world need to be deceived cleverly in the name of a certain notion (mainly via great speeches) in order to feel good while they obey the imposed rules.
In my case, I obey any rule (made by any ruler while it is imposed on the people by some servants) as long it doesn't contradict/oppose the purpose of my existence Tongue

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 11:43 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 10:58 AM)KerimF Wrote:  I wonder if also the personal spirituality (I mean what could be perceived by some humans as being in contradiction to/with their instincts) doesn't exist in/to an atheist.

Sorry, I don't speak woo. What is 'personal spirituality'? What do you mean by perceiving something to be in contradiction to instincts?

I guess you agree that it would be silly from my part to talk with you about something that doesn't exist to you in the first place.

For instance, those who perceive in them what could be related to their instincts only are indeed fortunate for having just a human living flesh to take care of Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 01:06 PM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
In my case, I obey any rule (made by any ruler while it is imposed on the people by some servants) as long it doesn't contradict/oppose the purpose of my existence Tongue

Then, disobedience or dissent becomes a matter related to values ... values attuned to what you have determined to be your raison d'être.

Pray tell what have you determined those values to be?

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DLJ's post
03-07-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 12:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 10:28 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you. Translating it to French makes it very clear.
I like adding that I was a bit confused seeing an atheist using an idiom that includes the verb "to pray" which is one of the most favourite verbs to theists Wink

I think you also gave a practical clear definition of what being an atheist is supposed to mean.

Now, I wonder how could we call a person who doesn't believe in supernatural rulers (usually called gods) and in earthly ones as well (of ANY system). In other words, he doesn't feel the need to be guided by any LAW (said of god or men) or be among those in charge of applying a certain justice on others.
Don't you agree if such a human exists, he would be more evolved than the atheist ones who just deny the existence of all supernatural rulers only Wink

You're welcome. I'm a half-Cajun, from Louisiana, so I spoke a bit of French in my childhood. Many English phrases originate from French, because of the Norman invasion in 1066, which altered both the German-based "Old English" language and added many expressions to our lexicon.

As to your question, someone who believes in gods in general is a "theist". One who believes in a Creator of the Universe who does not feel the need to intervene in that Creation is a "Deist".

DLJ already covered what my response to the "more evolved" part would have been.

Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 12:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you don't believe in any gods, you are an atheist.

Sorry, I don't believe in any god who has to play the ruler over men and look for followers (as any needy king in the world does).

So it seems to me that you (as many others) didn't hear yet of a god who doesn't need asking anything from his creatures Wink

Declaration of Independence Wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


The key phrase is 'consent of the governed'. That is democracy, not what you mislabel democracy.

I knew you are likely happy with "Democracy" as a theist is happy with his God Wink

I mean, if it is possible for a theist to see something wrong in his God, a person raised in a democratic country 'might' see something wrong in "Democracy" Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 02:05 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 12:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you don't believe in any gods, you are an atheist.

Sorry, I don't believe in any god who has to play the ruler over men and look for followers (as any needy king in the world does).

So it seems to me that you (as many others) didn't hear yet of a god who doesn't need asking anything from his creatures Wink

Since you have neither defined this god nor stated that you believe in it, then I suggest you do so or risk being mislabeled as an atheist.

Quote:
Declaration of Independence Wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


The key phrase is 'consent of the governed'. That is democracy, not what you mislabel democracy.

I knew you are likely happy with "Democracy" as a theist is happy with his God Wink

I mean, if it is possible for a theist to see something wrong in his God, a person raised in a democratic country 'might' see something wrong in "Democracy" Wink

That doesn't even make sense. Read the words - they are definitional, not a statement of faith.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
03-07-2016, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 04:23 PM by unfogged.)
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 01:17 PM)KerimF Wrote:  I guess you agree that it would be silly from my part to talk with you about something that doesn't exist to you in the first place.

Things do or do not exist in reality. It makes no sense to say something exists to you but not to me.

Quote:For instance, those who perceive in them what could be related to their instincts only are indeed fortunate for having just a human living flesh to take care of Wink

That is pure word salad. It does not convey anything meaningful.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
03-07-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

A Deist is a kind of theist. A Deist would best fit how I hear you describing your concept of God. Many of the USA's "founding Fathers" were Deists.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
03-07-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(01-07-2016 10:57 PM)KerimF Wrote:  I didn't mind working with the concept of 'geometrical dot' though, by definition, it cannot exist since it is a 'dimensionless' object.
Lots of things that exist in the real world are dimensionless. The "golden rectangle" for example, with sides of 4:3. There's no way I can mathematically determine this ratio, but it obviously exists.

Quote:I didn't mind working with the notion of 'infinity' though I can never reach it other than in my imagination perhaps.
Nope; you cannot imagine infinity.

Quote:If you get my point you would conclude that the existence of a God/Creator is not important to me but how this God could be useful in my life.
So this imaginary god is not "important" to you, but somehow going to be "useful" in your life? This is self-contradictory.

Quote:In fact, the formal believers (based on faith of any god) share the glory of men in their group, if not having better chances to also gain money and be famous; besides many extra bonuses (like finding a job or a partner... etc.). So it is out of question for them to split from their group as long they can take from it more than if they were in another one.
Sorry, but I have no idea what sort of point you're making here. Are you seriously claiming that people who belong to a religious congregation will be more successful at finding a job, making money, or forming a relationship? (Or am I not reading this correctly?)

Quote:By the way, Atheism is also based on a belief that says: God doesn't exist.
No. Atheism is nothing more than a state of mind. It doesn't rely on any "beliefs" at all. And atheists do not say that gods don't exist. We say that there is no empirical evidence that supports a belief in supernatural entities (EG gods) or paranormal phenomena (EG miracles). Subtle but important difference. Unlike you—and as a skeptic—my mind is open to all theoretical possibilities, either confirmatory or contradictory.


Quote:And this belief also helps many people to form their special groups but likely to a lesser extent than believers do.
Citation required.

Quote:Believers have the advantage of having a certain well-defined idol to gather around.
And the purported "advantages" of believing in the existence of an imaginary, supernatural entity are???

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SYZ's post
03-07-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 12:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You're welcome. I'm a half-Cajun, from Louisiana, so I spoke a bit of French in my childhood. Many English phrases originate from French, because of the Norman invasion in 1066, which altered both the German-based "Old English" language and added many expressions to our lexicon.

As to your question, someone who believes in gods in general is a "theist". One who believes in a Creator of the Universe who does not feel the need to intervene in that Creation is a "Deist".

DLJ already covered what my response to the "more evolved" part would have been.

Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

I don't see why there can't be a theist who believes this. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the term 'theist' just means that the person believes in G-d. It doesn't define what that god must be to that person.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: