[split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
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03-07-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
Since you have neither defined this god nor stated that you believe in it, then I suggest you do so or risk being mislabeled as an atheist.
...

I sometimes hesitate before revealing my kafir status here in Malaysia.

If I lived in Syria right now, I think I would hesitate before expressing a position on pretty much anything.

Sadcryface

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03-07-2016, 06:04 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(28-06-2016 06:17 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Putting aside how I ended up knowing my Creator, my question is:
Does a typical Atheist know what is wrong (to him in the least) in this or that image of god that lets him refuse its existence in his life (after all, this is his natural right, as it is mine Wink )?

Kerim

Because god is an illogical concept. Any attempt to define a plausible god is fraught with contradictions and impossibilities. (no matter what, god is definitely not that tyrant in the babble-book, crayon or any other "scripture" and certainly would not lower itself to the beliefs presented by any religion)

Though I have no belief in a god, on occasion I do muse on the necessary possibilities and have yet to come up with anything even remotely possible. The godless creation of the universe is so much easier to envision than any god.

"They think, therefore I am" - god
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03-07-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
Since you have neither defined this god nor stated that you believe in it, then I suggest you do so or risk being mislabeled as an atheist.
...

I sometimes hesitate before revealing my kafir status here in Malaysia.

If I lived in Syria right now, I think I would hesitate before expressing a position on pretty much anything.

Sadcryface

I think I'd express the position of lying prone and keeping my head down. Undecided

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

I don't see why there can't be a theist who believes this. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the term 'theist' just means that the person believes in G-d. It doesn't define what that god must be to that person.

The difference between a deist and a theist is usually understood to be that the god of the deist doesn't meddle or judge like the theists' god. Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

I don't see why there can't be a theist who believes this. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the term 'theist' just means that the person believes in G-d. It doesn't define what that god must be to that person.

Agreed. "Theist" also describes it. Deism, as I understand it, is a belief in a Creator God, but one who does not intervene (or make "laws") in the affairs of man.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-07-2016, 03:57 PM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  Since you have neither defined this god nor stated that you believe in it, then I suggest you do so or risk being mislabeled as an atheist.

I guess you know, better than I, that no matter how people see or call you, you are (will be) always the way you are.
I am afraid that being mislabelled may bother those who had to be dependent on some others only (in a social group and/or at work). But it is irrelevant in case of those who are able to live real independent (It seems living so is likely very hard in the so-called Free World... right? Wink )

Quote:I: I knew you are likely happy with "Democracy" as a theist is happy with his God Wink
I mean, if it is possible for a theist to see something wrong in his God, a person raised in a democratic country 'might' see something wrong in "Democracy" Wink

You: That doesn't even make sense. Read the words - they are definitional, not a statement of faith.

You are right they are indeed definitional. And I am glad that you see them applied too... while I don't Sad
But I also won't gain anything by disturbing your joy for (and proud of) living in a "Democratic" country.

Perhaps by a mere coincidence, I personally knew (as I have posted it in other forums before the start of the last FREE elections in USA) that Mrs Hillary Clinton was already chosen (as planned before making of G. Bush the US President) for the job of the US presidency (after President Obama). But, on the other hand, no one can deny, that the shows and ceremonies of these elections (every 4 years) are among the best entrainments made for the American people.
[/quote]

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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05-07-2016, 12:30 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 03:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I: I guess you agree that it would be silly from my part to talk with you about something that doesn't exist to you in the first place.

You: Things do or do not exist in reality. It makes no sense to say something exists to you but not to me.

I: For instance, those who perceive in them what could be related to their instincts only are indeed fortunate for having just a human living flesh to take care of Wink

You: That is pure word salad. It does not convey anything meaningful.

Well, what could I add other than "you are totally right" since you insist that I should perceive my existence and the world exactly as you do.

And I hope you can forgive me for not being able fooling myself to please you by ignoring what happened to also exist in me besides my human living flesh and have its own set of rules to survive (yes, if not fed properly, it would die too Sad ).

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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05-07-2016, 01:10 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 04:21 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

A Deist is a kind of theist. A Deist would best fit how I hear you describing your concept of God. Many of the USA's "founding Fathers" were Deists.

You let me wonder now why most Americans (who heard of the “founding Fathers”) have no idea of such a concept of God and therefore the purpose for which life was created (other than the ones believed by the different theists).
But please let us not forget that most of our friends here get a bit nervous anytime they hear the word God with or without rules Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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05-07-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:08 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Unlike you—and as a skeptic—my mind is open to all theoretical possibilities, either confirmatory or contradictory.

As you said, we are surely not alike though our mind is open to all possibilities.

Our main difference is that you used to build your knowledge on what some others (who got your trust) confirm as being real and true (likely in the name of science) while I can’t see my mind following anyone Sad ... in the name of science or else.

It happens that I was given a human brain as intelligent as of anyone who may pretend knowing (better than I) what is good and useful to me in my life... and also what exists or not in the realm I perceive Wink

But I also have nothing against any follower of any kind. Every person is free to accept even being a follower, for one reason or another. This reminds me a young man who told me once: “If you can provide me always good food, a modern house with a beautiful wife, I don’t mind being your slave for life” Smile Also, I asked once a kid who lives near a Church and a Mosque: “In which of the two you feel better”. His innocent reply was simply: “in which they offer better sweets for kids” Smile

I repeat... it is all about one’s priorities in life (for which he is made to exist) and the best ways, for him, to live them.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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05-07-2016, 02:44 AM
RE: [split] from "Ask Some Atheists" - Concept/Image of a Personal Creator
(03-07-2016 05:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 01:25 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Thank you for the definitions of theist and Deist.
But do you think there is a theist whose god doesn't have rules that men (including him, the theist) should follow and obey?

I don't see why there can't be a theist who believes this. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the term 'theist' just means that the person believes in G-d. It doesn't define what that god must be to that person.

You are right. This is true by definition which, I am afraid, was also made/accepted by certain men (and women, if you like Wink ) who had their good reasons to put it this way.

But the concept of a needy God (looking to be obeyed and being ready to punish whoever disobey him) is surely very different from the concept of God that doesn't need asking anything for himself (for instance such God cannot be just 'one' supernatural being, hence selfish Wink )

But I also believe that it is good for someone to reject the concept of any god if this lets him feel better during his temporary journey on earth Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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