[split from] Atheist because
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09-05-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 07:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I use "precept" as there are biological bases for such impulses, and an explanation rooted in evolutionary development seems to account for them better than any going alternatives. We may observe those same foundational impulses - group-loyalty and reciprocity, to name the most salient - in all of our close relatives, and indeed in many other species besides.

I do not think it reasonable to declare human moral reasoning as somehow separable from our biological being, and as such one would expect just the innate statistical variation we seem to observe - as with any measurable trait.

The precepts of moral reasoning are, if innate, not amenable to reason and do not change predictably with experience - I do not say they cannot change, but that they cannot be changed by purely logical and rational argument. This is a rather significant distinction as compared to any explicitly external claim, such as the existence of a deity.

I think I agree. Where I have trouble, and fall back on the word "axiom", is where we switch from talking about what IS, and switch to a value judgement about what OUGHT TO BE. Why flourishing instead of death, why fulfillment over pain, why good over bad? I sense that it can't be proven, but should also be, and is for most people, self-evident.

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
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09-05-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 07:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 07:42 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Are chimps theists who get their morals from your god?

No.

Then where do they get things like cooperation, empathy, sharing, and many other traits that look just like human morals?
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09-05-2014, 08:02 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 07:59 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 07:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  No.

Then where do they get things like cooperation, empathy, sharing, and many other traits that look just like human morals?

God.
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09-05-2014, 08:02 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 07:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You are sad.

You just said that rape being wrong is not a matter of fact.

But at least you are being consistent with your atheism.

Now, now... I said it is impossible to prove it is wrong as a universally and objectively true fact. I absolutely believe it, just can't prove it. Kinda like you and god.

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
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09-05-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)djhall Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 07:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You are sad.

You just said that rape being wrong is not a matter of fact.

But at least you are being consistent with your atheism.

Now, now... I said it is impossible to prove it is wrong as a universally and objectively true fact. I absolutely believe it, just can't prove it. Kinda like you and god.

You dont have to prove it. If someone asks you for proof that raping women is wrong then simply refer them to a mental health institution or simply dismiss them as wanting to argue.

To a sane individual who is not depraved, it is self evident
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09-05-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 07:59 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Then where do they get things like cooperation, empathy, sharing, and many other traits that look just like human morals?

God.

Amazing....
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09-05-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:07 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God.

Amazing....

I know.
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09-05-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  I think I agree. Where I have trouble, and fall back on the word "axiom", is where we switch from talking about what IS, and switch to a value judgement about what OUGHT TO BE.

Yes, as that involves moving from external to internal.

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  Why flourishing instead of death...

The genes of an organism which does not value self-perpetuation are not long for this world - would that not be fairly elementary?

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  ... why fulfillment over pain...

Would this not be rooted in reciprocity, and explained insofar as communities are far more likely to survive and perpetuate than lone individuals?
(so far as humans and other primates are generally concerned?)

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  ... why good over bad? I sense that it can't be proven, but should also be, and is for most people, self-evident.

Is not "good" merely defined according to some permutation of the above?

"Value" is a subjective experience, but what is valued is a topic amenable to investigation. And if it is amenable to investigation, answers as to the why may follow.

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09-05-2014, 08:11 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)djhall Wrote:  Now, now... I said it is impossible to prove it is wrong as a universally and objectively true fact. I absolutely believe it, just can't prove it. Kinda like you and god.

You dont have to prove it. If someone asks you for proof that raping women is wrong then simply refer them to a mental health institution or simply dismiss them as wanting to argue.

So when you started a thread about Biblical rape, and proceeded to justify it...

(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  To a sane individual who is not depraved, it is self evident
(09-05-2014 06:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, dipshits love to blather on about how their personal subjective premises are "axiomatic".

So what?

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09-05-2014, 08:16 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
cjlr you've got your mind in the clouds.


many people live quite contrary to how you think they do. many people love pain and could care less about surviving and reproducing and any of the other garbage you claim we have evolved to be concerned about.

Many are hedonisitic and give thought only to pleasure and care little for length of life or passing on their dna.

I dont know if you have blinders on pal but the world is getting worse not better. People are becoming increasingly violent and living for the most part with no regard for others....this whole dream you have about evolution selecting traits for survival seems like just that..... a dream....

In fact, if i were an atheist i would be awfully concerned about the prospects of the future. looks grim indeed.
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