[split from] Atheist because
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-05-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You dont have to prove it. If someone asks you for proof that raping women is wrong then simply refer them to a mental health institution or simply dismiss them as wanting to argue.

So when you started a thread about Biblical rape, and proceeded to justify it...

(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  To a sane individual who is not depraved, it is self evident
(09-05-2014 06:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, dipshits love to blather on about how their personal subjective premises are "axiomatic".

So what?

you think everything you say should be taken as true though.

yet you rebuke someone for positing moral axioms.

Your view that all views about morality are relative is itself by its own definition relative, but if so, we have no reason to prefer it over our own.

Another fail
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:20 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2014 08:27 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:16 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  cjlr you've got your mind in the clouds.


many people live quite contrary to how you think they do. many people love pain and could care less about surviving and reproducing and any of the other garbage you claim we have evolved to be concerned about.

Many are hedonisitic and give thought only to pleasure and care little for length of life or passing on their dna.

I dont know if you have blinders on pal but the world is getting worse not better. People are becoming increasingly violent and living for the most part with no regard for others....this whole dream you have about evolution selecting traits for survival seems like just that..... a dream....

In fact, if i were an atheist i would be awfully concerned about the prospects of the future. looks grim indeed.

This is of course patently and demonstrably false, it shows a lot of time spent in an echo chamber rather than in reality. Steven Pinker's book dealt with this mindset rather well. I can't say I am surprised to see someone as delusional as Jeremy here subscribes to this ultra pessimistic viewpoint.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Revenant77x's post
09-05-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)djhall Wrote:  Now, now... I said it is impossible to prove it is wrong as a universally and objectively true fact. I absolutely believe it, just can't prove it. Kinda like you and god.

You don't have to prove it. If someone asks you for proof that raping women is wrong then simply refer them to a mental health institution or simply dismiss them as wanting to argue.

To a sane individual who is not depraved, it is self evident

Yes. It is almost as if someone might admit they can't prove it to be objectively true, but consider it self-evident, perhaps using the term axiom to make that distinction clear so people don't consider their refusal to to claim objectivity was an endorsement of moral relativism, and then operate as if it were a true fact based on that reasoning. Consider

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes djhall's post
09-05-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:20 PM)djhall Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You don't have to prove it. If someone asks you for proof that raping women is wrong then simply refer them to a mental health institution or simply dismiss them as wanting to argue.

To a sane individual who is not depraved, it is self evident

Yes. It is almost as if someone might admit they can't prove it to be objectively true, but consider it self-evident, perhaps using the term axiom to make that distinction clear so people don't consider their refusal to to claim objectivity was an endorsement of moral relativism, and then operate as if it were a true fact based on that reasoning. Consider

dj you and i both know that everyone here does not need proof that certain things are wrong. you know it, i know it, they know it.

Anyone who tells you that they cant say that raping women is wrong for a fact without proof is simply disingenuous or depraved and sick or all three.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:26 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  I think I agree. Where I have trouble, and fall back on the word "axiom", is where we switch from talking about what IS, and switch to a value judgement about what OUGHT TO BE.

Yes, as that involves moving from external to internal.

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  Why flourishing instead of death...

The genes of an organism which does not value self-perpetuation are not long for this world - would that not be fairly elementary?

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  ... why fulfillment over pain...

Would this not be rooted in reciprocity, and explained insofar as communities are far more likely to survive and perpetuate than lone individuals?
(so far as humans and other primates are generally concerned?)

(09-05-2014 07:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  ... why good over bad? I sense that it can't be proven, but should also be, and is for most people, self-evident.

Is not "good" merely defined according to some permutation of the above?

"Value" is a subjective experience, but what is valued is a topic amenable to investigation. And if it is amenable to investigation, answers as to the why may follow.

I agree, at least to the point where I consider is to stand on its face, to be worthy of acceptance as self-evident on its own. I'm more than happy to find a logical proof for that proposition. Instinct makes me wary of opening the door to accusations of IS to OUGHT or circular definitions or pleading the question of "good" if I don't consider that very carefully.

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
and dj we should not let the absurd views of a few sick people to cast any doubt on what we clearly know to be true.

It would be like allowing a blind man's inability to see to cause us to doubt what we clearly see with our eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:30 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
So why did god rape Mary? He must have known it was objectively wrong, since he came up with the morality that says so in the first place. But that's exactly what he did.

Isn't that what you believe? Consider

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes evenheathen's post
09-05-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:30 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  So why did god rape Mary? He must have known it was objectively wrong, since he came up with the morality that says so in the first place. But that's exactly what he did.

Isn't that what you believe? Consider

Nope.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:33 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:24 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:20 PM)djhall Wrote:  Yes. It is almost as if someone might admit they can't prove it to be objectively true, but consider it self-evident, perhaps using the term axiom to make that distinction clear so people don't consider their refusal to to claim objectivity was an endorsement of moral relativism, and then operate as if it were a true fact based on that reasoning. Consider

dj you and i both know that everyone here does not need proof that certain things are wrong. you know it, i know it, they know it.

Anyone who tells you that they cant say that raping women is wrong for a fact without proof is simply disingenuous or depraved and sick or all three.

Nope, they don't. In fact, they will call you on it if you try to tell them they do, and that you have the prove they need. I've seen that happening somewhere around here....

But at the end of the day, I need to know I did the best I could, I need to make sure I watch for personal bias coloring my moral judgements in my favor, I need to sleep and night and face myself in the mirror, and I need to have a damn good argument for doing the best I could if I find I am wrong and there is a higher power to answer to. So I do the best I can.

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: [split from] Atheist because
(09-05-2014 08:16 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  cjlr you've got your mind in the clouds.

many people live quite contrary to how you think they do. many people love pain and could care less about surviving and reproducing and any of the other garbage you claim we have evolved to be concerned about.

Many are hedonisitic and give thought only to pleasure and care little for length of life or passing on their dna.

That would be precisely the innate variation I explicitly acknowledged.

Though, how you square that inevitable and demonstrable variation with your "morals are objectively from GAWD lol" I can't fathom.

(09-05-2014 08:16 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I dont know if you have blinders on pal but the world is getting worse not better. People are becoming increasingly violent and living for the most part with no regard for others....this whole dream you have about evolution selecting traits for survival seems like just that..... a dream...

In fact, if i were an atheist i would be awfully concerned about the prospects of the future. looks grim indeed.

Citation needed, you epic ignoramus. Crime rates have been decreasing for decades.

But I guess "feels" are totally superior to actual data. Seems legit.

(09-05-2014 08:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  So when you started a thread about Biblical rape, and proceeded to justify it...
So what?

you think everything you say should be taken as true though.

No, but I can see where it's convenient for your disingenuous ass to pretend so.

(09-05-2014 08:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  yet you rebuke someone for positing moral axioms.

If you actually read my post, you'll see that I agreed in principle but disliked the use of the word "axiom".

(09-05-2014 08:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Your view that all views about morality are relative is itself by its own definition relative, but if so, we have no reason to prefer it over our own.

Um, yes.

So what?

You appear to have literally nothing to contribute here.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: