[split from] Atheist because
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09-05-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:22 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:16 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I agree that there are moral values and duties that we're obligated to live be. I do not believe they are objective. I believe that they are mutually agreed upon, generally speaking. If they are objective, then please, by all means, produce them. It ain't in the Bible, which holds blind obedience to a bloodthirsty dictator who kills the curious on a whim but allows murderers and pedophiles to victimize without interference.

Why are they obligatory? What makes them obligatory?

Mutual agreement and self/societal preservation. Nothing objective, like a totalitarian tyrant who'll stone you to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week but can't find room in his entire magnum opus for the four words "slavery is always wrong."

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09-05-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:13 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 11:55 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Yes I have something for you.

Why are you talking about what is moral, when on your view, there is no grounds for you to make such a statement?

Clearly, I have some grounds for morality when I recognize that agreeing to kill your son because a disembodied voice told you to is wrong, every time. My question for you is, how can you preach to me about MY morality when YOU think someone who agrees to kill his son because a disembodied voice told him to is morally RIGHT?

In other words, show me the objective morality of which you speak, because the Bible ain't it.

Ok. What grounds are you referring to?
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09-05-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:33 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:22 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why are they obligatory? What makes them obligatory?

Mutual agreement and self/societal preservation. Nothing objective, like a totalitarian tyrant who'll stone you to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week but can't find room in his entire magnum opus for the four words "slavery is always wrong."

So when the people of a particular society agree on something (cultural relativism), oh...lets say...that the beheading of atheists is something that is going to help preserve their society from the evils of atheism and that therefore this is good for them to do, this mutual agreement obligates them to behead atheists?
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09-05-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:00 PM)Leo Wrote:  You can't talk about morals either. Morals in your view is that actions that offend your monster god Yahveh. Morals in christianity isn't about the negatives actions that harm other beings humans or animals.

Red herring.

And yes I can talk about what is moral and immoral. I hold that there exist moral values and duties that we all are obligated to live by. If we do not, we are just as wrong as if we had said two and two were five.

Where do they come from? You have not made that at all explicit.

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09-05-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:34 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Listen, you've already posted on this subject in a number of different threads. Coming onto THIS thread to revive the same discussion hijacks this thread's intention and is unappreciated. Let the rest of us get back on topic, please. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a lot like:
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09-05-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 12:25 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 11:55 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Yes I have something for you.

Why are you talking about what is moral, when on your view, there is no grounds for you to make such a statement?

The fact that we want to survive. You give me food I will give you food, that's how humans work. You need to read a fucking book kid.Drinking Beverage

You are saying that a person's desires are their grounds for what they determine is moral or not.

If a person desires to cut atheist's heads off and lives in a society where this is practiced to ensure that the evil of atheism does not infiltrate their society, then for this person and these people, they are acting morally. They are doing something good.

This is cultural relativism.

Another culture may think that loving atheists and treating them kindly is more in line with their particular desires and ends as a society.

If cultural relativism is indeed true, then both societies are acting morally while holding contradictory views.

This means that the members of the latter society can never try to impose their views on the former, stop the acts of the former, try to convince the former society to change, etc. etc.

Now if you do not see a problem with this then that is fine. Just let it be known to you that you can never try to impose your views on Christians, stop the acts of Christians, try to convince them to change etc. etc.

You have to recognize that the beliefs of Christians are moral for them because they decide that they are moral. You may disagree no doubt, but it amounts to nothing more than a disagreement based on personal taste or opinion.

The minute you say Christians are guilty of doing something objectively wrong i.e. wrong even if they believe it is right, you are renouncing your moral relativism.

Incidentally, this is something I see here in just about every other post and coming from people who CLAIM to be moral relativists.

That is my point and I will keep making it as long as you all act like you are not clear on this.
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09-05-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 01:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Red herring.

And yes I can talk about what is moral and immoral. I hold that there exist moral values and duties that we all are obligated to live by. If we do not, we are just as wrong as if we had said two and two were five.

Where do they come from? You have not made that at all explicit.

When you renounce your moral relativism and admit you believe there are moral values and duties that exist objectively, then I will answer your question.
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09-05-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 01:54 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 01:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  Where do they come from? You have not made that at all explicit.

When you renounce your moral relativism and admit you believe there are moral values and duties that exist objectively, then I will answer your question.

What is this tit for tat? Who and what gives you the right to order around and preach to folks asking basic questions to move the discussion forward. Boy you just love playing games, which is deceptive and not honest BTW!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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09-05-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 01:38 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:33 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Mutual agreement and self/societal preservation. Nothing objective, like a totalitarian tyrant who'll stone you to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week but can't find room in his entire magnum opus for the four words "slavery is always wrong."

So when the people of a particular society agree on something (cultural relativism), oh...lets say...that the beheading of atheists is something that is going to help preserve their society from the evils of atheism and that therefore this is good for them to do, this mutual agreement obligates them to behead atheists?

I have made it quite clear that this line of discussion is off-topic on this thread. You have brought this up on other threads and it has been discussed there ad nauseam. You are derailing this thread and it is not appreciated. Please stop.

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09-05-2014, 02:33 PM
[split] Atheist because...
(09-05-2014 02:05 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 01:54 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  When you renounce your moral relativism and admit you believe there are moral values and duties that exist objectively, then I will answer your question.

What is this tit for tat? Who and what gives you the right to order around and preach to folks asking basic questions to move the discussion forward. Boy you just love playing games, which is deceptive and not honest BTW!

The right that I decide it is good to do it.

In your world, that's all I need. Remember?

In your world the individual determines what is good, right, wrong, bad, not bad, etc. etc.
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