[split from Leela's spirituality] Herbs
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01-07-2012, 11:27 AM
[split from Leela's spirituality] Herbs
Quote:herbs and how to use them to heal (and yes, that does indeed work)
Well, some herbs do some things to some people. But how much of what herb, to do what, under what conditions, prepared in what way, with what interactions, what side-effects, etc.?

Got any published double-blind trials? Or only witch trials? Big Grin

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01-07-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
You don't honestly want me to write down recipies and illnesses now, do you?

What's a "double-blind trial"? (honestly, i don't know what that is)

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01-07-2012, 11:37 AM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 11:40 AM by Chas.)
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 11:31 AM)Leela Wrote:  You don't honestly want me to write down recipies and illnesses now, do you?

What's a "double-blind trial"? (honestly, i don't know what that is)
From Wikipedia:
Quote:Double-blind describes an especially stringent way of conducting an experiment, usually on human subjects, in an attempt to eliminate subjective bias on the part of both experimental subjects and the experimenters. In most cases, double-blind experiments are held to achieve a higher standard of scientific rigor.

In a double-blind experiment, neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group and who belongs to the experimental group. Only after all the data have been recorded (and in some cases, analysed) do the researchers learn which individuals are which. Performing an experiment in double-blind fashion is a way to lessen the influence of the prejudices and unintentional physical cues on the results (the placebo effect, observer bias, and experimenter's bias). Random assignment of the subject to the experimental or control group is a critical part of double-blind research design. The key that identifies the subjects and which group they belonged to is kept by a third party and not given to the researchers until the study is over.
This is the gold-standard for drug testing.

Without real testing, taking herbs is a little like playing Russian Roulette.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-07-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
No Chas it should not, the other 4 threads of this series are here as well, they belong here, right in the atheism and theism section. If this is moved, than you can move the whole religion stuff move there, because it is all pseudoscience.

Kim: No I do not regret it. It is part of my past, I also don't regret believing in the easter bunny at some point, why would I. I grew out of it just like I grew out of a lot of other things. Yes I have a grimoire/notebook/callitwhatyouwant. It is currently in romania with all my other stuff.

Now about the herbs. Just naming a few of those everyone knows: Peppermint, Buckhorn Plantain, Nettle. You can make specific things out of all of them and they help in specific cases. Buckhorn Plaintain, you can either make ointment for smaller open wounds with it, like little cuts or so, or if you are camping and you cut you just grind it a little and put it right on after cleaning the wound. It will help the healing process of these smaller cuts and such. Peppermint tea when you have the sniffles. Nettle tea when you have problems urinating, it also helps the milk production in mothers, dosing the acids of it the right way will help against pains.
You can look it up.
And these are only three of the herbs, I named them because most people know these and use them. But there are lots more. Look up healing herbs or so. You will find loads.

So back on topic, not everything that is being taught in witchcraft is useless, that is one big difference to other, more common religions.

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01-07-2012, 01:23 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
Quote:No Chas it should not, the other 4 threads of this series are here as
well, they belong here, right in the atheism and theism section. If this
is moved, than you can move the whole religion stuff move there,
because it is all pseudoscience.
I was responding to the question of "Do you know what forum you're in?"
Quote:You can look it up.
And these are only three of the herbs, I named
them because most people know these and use them. But there are lots
more. Look up healing herbs or so. You will find loads.
Can I look up the published double-blind trials? There is loads of pseudo-information on pseudo-science available. Doesn't make it true.

I am not arguing that there aren't effective herbal remedies. I am saying that folklore isn't science. I am saying that anecdotes aren't evidence.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-07-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 01:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-07-2012 12:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And when multiple double-blind trials yield conflicting results? We may call it the "gold standard" but it feels more like a "bronze standard" to me. It's the best we got at this time, but that don't mean it's all that.
When multiple trials give conflicting results, that means something - we have learned something. The efficacy of the drug is not proven, or not in that dose, or the trial needs re-design.

It's the gold-standard because it is the best we have.

Agreed. But an indisputable mechanism of action is vastly more useful than any double-blind trial. Sound analytical explanations are always preferable to empirical ones. For example, this chart is far more useful to me in my hormonal replacement therapy than Androgel's double-blind studies which basically just determined general (± 2 standard deviations, 95% confidence interval) safety and efficacy.

[Image: hormones.png]

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01-07-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
Chas I am not arguing about if or if not herbs do work because it is offtopic. I simply stated, completely ontopic, that there are useful things being taught in witchcraft. One of those things is healing a lot of things with herbs and other plants.

Now, you may or may not take my word for it, if not, go and look it up, I am not going to do it for you. Of course feel free to open a thread about herbs if you feel the need to debate about herbs. I did not say that the herbs are science, I did not tell you to just take my word for granted, I did not tell you to stop using traditional medicine, and I did not share anecdotes about herbs.

You know, Chas, you are treating me here, like I am a crazy person who is in some kind of delusion. Why? I am not. I am not even believing in these things anymore. I am takling about my ex-belief, I am trying to share some actual knowledge because there is so much clichee on this topic that it started getting on my nerves. Sorry if I am not ranting about it just like most of the people who lost faith, but you see, I do not hate witchcraft.

Now, can we get back ontopic or is there still something about herbs that you feel the need to talk about?

and @ Rahn: I am fully aware where I am, as I said. I feel the need to talk about my ex-belief, if I may. This is the right place to do it. I am not asking anyone about their ex christianity either but it is all over the place.

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01-07-2012, 02:04 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 02:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 01:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  Can I look up the published double-blind trials?

Urtica dioica for Treatment of Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia A Prospective, Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Crossover Study

So why would we expect nettle to help with urination problems? Well in vitro we can see that urtica dioica has an inhibitory effect on 5α-reductase enzymes thereby reducing the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. The mechanism of action of the pharmaceuticals dutasteride and finasteride approved to treat the symptoms of BPH are also 5α-reductase antagonists. So we would expect nettle to also provide some relief from the symptoms of BPH. ... Got no idea how it might increase lactation, though. Wink

(01-07-2012 01:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is loads of pseudo-information on pseudo-science available. Doesn't make it true.

I am not arguing that there aren't effective herbal remedies. I am saying that folklore isn't science. I am saying that anecdotes aren't evidence.

When anecdotal evidence reaches a tipping point, it leads to more rigorous inquiry. You tend to dismiss anecdotal evidence out of hand without appreciating this role.

(01-07-2012 01:46 PM)Leela Wrote:  Now, can we get back ontopic or is there still something about herbs that you feel the need to talk about?

Dammit Leela, you're heading off a perfectly good derailment. Big Grin

Okay, give me more witchy stuff. Can you summarize Wiccan metaphysics for me? Is there a common metaphysics or is the individual witch free to choose their own?

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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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01-07-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 02:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There is loads of pseudo-information on pseudo-science available. Doesn't make it true.
(01-07-2012 01:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not arguing that there aren't effective herbal remedies. I am saying that folklore isn't science. I am saying that anecdotes aren't evidence.

When anecdotal evidence reaches a tipping point, it leads to more rigorous inquiry. You tend to dismiss anecdotal evidence out of hand without appreciating this role.
No, I don't dismiss data. One of our best wonder drugs came from folklore/anecdotal/tribal/herbal/traditional data: Aspirin. Infusions of willow bark contain salicylic acid, a precursor of acetylsalicylic acid - aspirin.

I don't see this as derailing the thread. Leela asserts that the teachings of witchcraft were teaching the useful along with the nonsense. I disagree - it was teaching the dangerous along with the nonsense.

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01-07-2012, 02:25 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
Quote:Chas I am not arguing about if or if not herbs do work because it is
offtopic. I simply stated, completely ontopic, that there are useful
things being taught in witchcraft. One of those things is healing a lot
of things with herbs and other plants.
It is not off-topic. You say that this is useful teaching, I say that it is dangerous.
Quote:Now, you may or may not take my word for it, if not, go and look it up, I
am not going to do it for you. Of course feel free to open a thread
about herbs if you feel the need to debate about herbs. I did not say
that the herbs are science, I did not tell you to just take my word for
granted, I did not tell you to stop using traditional medicine, and I
did not share anecdotes about herbs.
You miss the point. It is not a debate about herbs, it is about safety and efficacy, it is about the validity of knowledge, the difference between folklore and science.

Quote:You know, Chas, you are treating me here, like I am a crazy person who
is in some kind of delusion. Why? I am not. I am not even believing in
these things anymore. I am takling about my ex-belief, I am trying to
share some actual knowledge because there is so much clichee on this
topic that it started getting on my nerves. Sorry if I am not ranting
about it just like most of the people who lost faith, but you see, I do
not hate witchcraft.
I don't see that I have said anything to give you that impression. Huh

I am intensely interested in your experience with witchcraft - I am curious about beliefs. Thumbsup

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