[split from Leela's spirituality] Herbs
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01-07-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 02:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not off-topic. You say that this is useful teaching, I say that it is dangerous.

Dangerous how?
What is your evidence for this?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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01-07-2012, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 02:40 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 02:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-07-2012 02:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There is loads of pseudo-information on pseudo-science available. Doesn't make it true.
When anecdotal evidence reaches a tipping point, it leads to more rigorous inquiry. You tend to dismiss anecdotal evidence out of hand without appreciating this role.
No, I don't dismiss data. One of our best wonder drugs came from folklore/anecdotal/tribal/herbal/traditional data: Aspirin. Infusions of willow bark contain salicylic acid, a precursor of acetylsalicylic acid - aspirin.

I don't see this as derailing the thread. Leela asserts that the teachings of witchcraft were teaching the useful along with the nonsense. I disagree - it was teaching the dangerous along with the nonsense.

It's derailing the thread in the sense that it is by no means unique to Wicca. I could, for example, point out that Traditional Chinese Medicine relies far more on 5000+ years of "anecdotal evidence" than double-blind trials. They might disagree with your characterization of "folklore" and "dangerous". Would that qualify as derailment?

Okay, I'm gonna stop now before Leela gets even more pissed. (Hey, I thought you had me on your ignore list. Smile )

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01-07-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
There is always an inherent danger of taking any product that isn't regulated. Many herbs and herbal supplements aren't regulated and as such, any company can package herbs in any dosage strength they wish, if they even care about dosage strength.

So right off the bat, you have various companies producing products that have various dosage sizes and also various extra additives that can have unknown drug interactions with other prescribed medicines that you may already be taking.

Then when you add in the fact that people are self prescribing herbs that may have no beneficial effect on their condition, you then have a person's health diminishing while they in fact may "feel better" from taking an herb that is laced with a known pain killer.

Aside from this, there are many more ways in which herbs can be a danger to those who take them.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-07-2012, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 02:53 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 02:41 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  There is always an inherent danger of taking any product that isn't regulated. Many herbs and herbal supplements aren't regulated and as such, any company can package herbs in any dosage strength they wish, if they even care about dosage strength.

So right off the bat, you have various companies producing products that have various dosage sizes and also various extra additives that can have unknown drug interactions with other prescribed medicines that you may already be taking.

Then when you add in the fact that people are self prescribing herbs that may have no beneficial effect on their condition, you then have a person's health diminishing while they in fact may "feel better" from taking an herb that is laced with a known pain killer.

Aside from this, there are many more ways in which herbs can be a danger to those who take them.

Dammit. Sorry Leela. Seriously let's take this to a new thread folks.

An educated consumer will not only have done due diligence in identifying and researching those phytochemicals which may be beneficial to their condition(s), they will insist on an independent Certificate of Analysis from the supplier. Uneducated consumers, on the other hand, are fools. Not my job to protect them.

One of you mods should split this tangent off now before it gets too entangled. They're both worthwhile interesting discussions. Scottie? You shown a talent for this before.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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01-07-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
Actually what Leela said in regard to "dangerous" was:
"when you are being taught stuff that works and is useful along with stuff that does not work and is useless, but both are absolute facts, your brain will not make a difference unless you start asking lots of questions" At least that's what I gathered from her original post.

To me, she is addressing the hook of faith. This is the dangerous thing... this is the con. It hooks the unsuspecting; people who may not even be looking for faith can easily be sucked in by good and practical things about it. And indoctrination takes place with a mixture of both. This is why I pointed this very sentence out... I think most people do not even notice it. Wink Did ya?

Do you want examples of "good" from another faith or from folklore? How about... don't count your chickens before they hatch. Or... do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Slow and steady wins the race. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Teaching good things along with the destructive things... that's what confuses and eventually secures faith for people.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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01-07-2012, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012 03:07 PM by Leela.)
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
Chas, not everything that you don't know is dangerous. I don't know what might be dangerous in drinking camomille tea, apart from maybe being allergic to camomille or having a very dry throat already.
Of course it would be dangerous to use certain herbs on certain people with certain conditions. Like I would not like to give a tea with a lot of herbs that have strong essential oils in them to a person that has asthma. But you see, things like that are included in these teachings. It is not like they throw a bunch of herbs at you and tell you to use it how ever you want to.
The whole teaching process takes lots of years, you are not being taught in subjects. It is not like "today we do herbs for one hour and then we use the pendulum for one hour". You memorize the things because you are being shown and told over and over again until you can reach out to the correct herb, and still your mentor person will be with you and ask you why you picked this and how much you will use and will stop you from using something wrong. It often comes out of the situation. Say the brother get's sick. Then you take out your herbs, you make the tea together, you explain every herb, what it does, what it looks like as a plant, what part you are using right now, what the other parts of the plant do, what side effects can happen, what parts not to use, different ways to use it (grind it, cook it, chop it....).

You might understand this like something, that takes place for the period of a month and then it is done. But no, it is not. It takes many years, and even after those many years, there are still loads of things you don't know and keep learning.
Does this answer your question now?
Please say "yes" and lets move on


Kim: THANK YOU!

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01-07-2012, 03:07 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 02:27 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(01-07-2012 02:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not off-topic. You say that this is useful teaching, I say that it is dangerous.

Dangerous how?
What is your evidence for this?
Taking unproven herbal remedies is risky. Dosage? Interactions? Contra-indications?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-07-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 03:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-07-2012 02:27 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Dangerous how?
What is your evidence for this?
Taking unproven herbal remedies is risky. Dosage? Interactions? Contra-indications?
How so? Evidence?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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01-07-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 03:09 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  How so? Evidence?
Here's a good compilation: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~amybrown/Potenti...0Table.pdf

You may also want to check out the other search results on Google.

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01-07-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: Leela's spirituality: How is magic being taught?
(01-07-2012 03:10 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You may also want to check out the other search results on Google.
I'm not the one that has to provide the burden of proof.

Also...I don't really give a rat's ass, I'm just giving Chas a hard time for being terse and deadly. Big Grin

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